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Union loyalists

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BJones

05-04-2009 08:42:33




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Not really against the unions, per say. They have helped some occupations, especially hazardous jobs, like mining.

But my real question is this:

How many of you union loyalists actually ran your own business? I mean a real business where you employed some people. Other than yourself, that is.




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greygoat

05-05-2009 06:30:51




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 Re: Union loyalists in reply to BJones, 05-04-2009 08:42:33  
I am a retired Railroad Machinist/Locomotive mechanic. If it wasn't for the union,the company
would treat employees as SLAVE LABOR. The union
brought SAFETY, in a dangerious occupation.
My wife is a Librarian in a Wisconsin school system, at $12 per hour, and thanks to the union
has good insurance, including Dental. The School
board would wipe their manure covered feet on the
employees if it wasn't for the union. Our Daughter
teaches in Iowa,A "right to work" state,(where
they "have the right to work FOR LESS") Though
they do have a local union, hardly anyone belongs,
and those that do resent paying union dues. They
have no bargening power, low wages,(compared to Wisconsin), Pi$$ poor health insurance, no Dental,
and poor other benefits, such as sick days.
Their School board walks all over them, because
they have no solidarity, no power to gain
improvement.

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Billy NY

05-05-2009 06:12:37




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 Re: Union loyalists in reply to BJones, 05-04-2009 08:42:33  
A tough subject to debate, especially with manufacturing and similar industries.

I've run and operated contracting business's with union construction trades in NYC, all 5 boroughs, and have dealt with most of the unions, their B.A.'s, delegates, journeymen & apprentice members. I can't say it's a bowl of peaches at all times, however, it's a lot different than the manufacturing scenario. Unions are long established in NYC, it is part of the cost of doing business, though there are many decent non-union companies, but some of those are not worth a bucket of spit. I say that because I did a building 1/2 union and 1/2 non union after the superstructure was up. Non english speaking, improperly trained, lacking skill and knowledge, is just what you don't want on a high rise job, I'll take unionized labor hands down, too many headaches and having to babysit trades makes for a real pain in the @ss job. On that same note, there are good non union outfits further upstate and west, most important is having skilled and experienced trades with good foremen and superintendents.

I've dealt with all kinds of union issues, from jurisdictional disputes, sitdowns, harrassment, pickets, as well as having a peak high of 60 + ironworkers, + other trades on the payroll which was $150,000/week with several jobs going concurrently. I've dealt with real pain in the @ss crane operators from IUOE #14 and others who were top notch. In summary, it's the cost of doing business, you just need to know how to negotiate the curves, jobs are profitable, though labor rates are a premium, it's all reflected in the cost of the job, just takes a good manager to make the job profitable, and you need an ability to get along with your union labor, key people like foremen are important in regards to quality and production.

The only real pains in the @ss are the standby trades, master mech, teamster on site, and job stewards, etc. all depends on who is in those positions, they can be your best friend or your worst enemy. I've had jobs with 14 or so ironworkers and no steward, why ?.... because of my relations with that union, foreman, etc. no steward, saved the company money, would not have been that way if they did not know me and my reputation for taking care of the men.Same job I needed a forklift on site, but not operating it full time, just as needed, operating engineers want you to hire a full time operator, that costs the job big time, so instead of butting heads in situations like this, you get both union B.A.'s to understand the situation and work out a reasonable solution, often times they will understand that if you hurt a company too much or repeatedly on situations like this, it can cause them to go out of business and many other union jobs, like I said, you just have to know how to negotiate the curves, sometimes stand your ground depending on what it is. That job with the forklift, another company rep used to bring an envelope to keep the O.E. quiet after the master mech left the site, so you have dirty tactics for guys like that, which I would have no part of, just forwarded the information and told em he's on the take, you do what you want I just need that forklift when I need it, that O.E. could have also lost big time if exposed, like Shultz said, "I see nothing, I know nothing" when it comes these tactics.

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trucker40

05-04-2009 16:08:23




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 Re: Union loyalists in reply to BJones, 05-04-2009 08:42:33  
I did.I had a shop and 4 mechanics at one time.We worked on diesels.Trouble was my help made more money than I did and I worked 7 days a week and many times all night too.None of the rest of the help did.One of them would stay late occasionally,but he was a drunk and although he was a good mechanic,he got unreliable.Its a hard job to line up work,order parts,and do engine overhauls,transmission rebuilds,and put up with all the rest of it,but it was still better than working for somebody.I learned a lot,but lost my lifes savings at that time trying to build a business.

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T-Rev

05-04-2009 15:33:12




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 Re: Union loyalists in reply to BJones, 05-04-2009 08:42:33  
I"m just not in the mood for this right now. We"ve debated unions enough, but... I work for a construction company started by a union operator. Employs 15 people, the last company I worked for the owner put his son in the operators union. That guy employed 100.



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M Moline fan

05-04-2009 14:57:17




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 Re: Union loyalists in reply to BJones, 05-04-2009 08:42:33  
I have to add a thought. The fact is, during the 90's Nike paid Micheal Jordan $27 million a year to endorse their shoes. That was more than they paid their entire Chinese work force to MAKE the shoes. The workers needed to go on strike. It would have been reasonable to ask for more. But, that was China. Imagine if they chose to strike the regime would have pulled a number of them aside and bang, bang, bang! That would be an example to the rest. Take what we give you or take that. That's how it is not to have the right to unionize. I think we're on the same path. By bringing in cheap labor stuff our government is effectively killing our unions and our standard of living.

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steveormary

05-04-2009 14:54:49




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 Re: Union loyalists in reply to BJones, 05-04-2009 08:42:33  
Packing plants need the Union.

steveormary



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buickanddeere

05-04-2009 14:33:23




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 Re: Union loyalists in reply to BJones, 05-04-2009 08:42:33  
If it wasn't for unions. Non-Union employees would not have vacations, healthcare plans, security or the wages they enjoy.



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mjbrown

05-04-2009 18:13:06




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 Re: Union loyalists in reply to buickanddeere, 05-04-2009 14:33:23  
Right. Before unions men, women and children worked sixty hour weeks. Sunday was the only day off. Laws pushed by the unions to humanize working conditions resulted in the forty hour week, overtime for over forty hours, mandatory lunch breaks, fifteen minute break for every four hours, saturday and sunday off for most people, paid vacation time, paid sick time. So the next time any of you feel like bashing unions don't do it on Saturday.

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jdemaris

05-04-2009 16:59:50




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 One more comment in reply to buickanddeere, 05-04-2009 14:33:23  
Did you ever read the history of Ford Motor Co. and Henry Ford's fight to keep the Union out of his company? Also how well he treated his non-union workers and how hw paid them more than the competing unionized companies?



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jdemaris

05-04-2009 15:56:49




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 Re: Union loyalists in reply to buickanddeere, 05-04-2009 14:33:23  
That't kind of like saying that if someone didn't invent the wheel back in prehistory days, we wouldn't have cars today. It may be true, but it's not exactly relevant to things as they are right now. Labor unions certainly served a good purpose once upon a time, and that time has long been gone. At present, they serve themselves and their members (sometimes) - and basically say the heck with everyone else.

For those that did make money way above their skill level, they should of socked the money away, and realized how good they had it, and how temporary it could/should be. For those who were/are highly skilled anyway? If true, you can make money anywhere if you look and/or try hard enough.

I was a member of the Teamsters (drove a garbage container truck in the 70s) and the IBEW (highline clearance for Asplundh and PSE&G) and quit both, and glad I did. I hated paying dues and I hated having a bunch of blowhards telling us how to vote. Went to work for a Deere dealer who was a former chicken farmer and stood against the unions the rest of his life, after starting his own Deere ag and forestry dealership. I'll add that he would of paid his man fair wages and profit sharing, regardless if unions ever exisited. Some people are "nice guys" without being forced into it.

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Larry NE IL

05-04-2009 18:59:01




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 Re: Union loyalists in reply to jdemaris, 05-04-2009 15:56:49  
I ran my own excavating business for 20+ years AS A UNION MEMBER. Kept 9 operators busy all year around and hired more as needed in the summer.
EVERYONE that works benefits from unions, including non union employees. I had a VP from a large Hombuilder complain to me how the unions were ruining the industry...I suggested that He knock on the doors of the homes they were selling and see who was buying Your houses.
Everyone wants to get "theirs" done cheaply, but then have aliens fly in from mars with a pocket full of cash and buy them up!!
The union also kept all of the contractors on an even keel. The problem is when the membership breaks down, as the teamsters did. Too many small "fifedoms" and too many members splitting off and working for less money than they should. I had a competitor who I could never beat on price. After I retired, one of my operators went to work for him. Sure enough, most of his guys were working overtime for 1/2 price, and no overtime on saturdays! And, no He didn't pay any extras. My guy quit and a few of the regulars quit with him.

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Howard H.

05-04-2009 20:03:38




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 Re: Union loyalists in reply to Larry NE IL, 05-04-2009 18:59:01  

I guess it depends on how you view "benefit".

A good friend of mine had a thriving electrical business that he'd built up over several years - was making money hand over fist and was becoming a regional contractor - but was worried about finding enough help for some upcoming big projects he had bid on.

He signed a contract to use union guys - and they had broke him within 2 years... They were the most worthless, arrogant guys he had ever tried to work with.

He about had a nervous breakdown trying to keep projects moving with those worthless sob's and finally went under...

Now he just works on his own and makes a good living on his own... But he'd spit in the eye of anyone that tries to tell him unions are good for anything but extortion...


HH

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trucker40

05-04-2009 17:23:47




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 Re: Union loyalists in reply to jdemaris, 05-04-2009 15:56:49  
I have to say that this all could be different now.Sure mistakes have been made by both sides but there will always be a place for unions in big companies or it will get like China.Because your friend was non union was his choice,I have a friend like that.I dont agree and we have gone so far as to get into a fight rolling around in the snow trying to choke each other over it.Unions are necessary.Now you can find morons everywhere,even in your own family.You just dont set back and let the morons run the world,or hopefully your union and your company.Its the old gangster corruption that has the car makers messed up.How would you like to work in a non union chicken plant in the south somewhere?You better come in and work boy on Christmas day,theres people lined up around the block that want your job type of deal.Or better yet,how well will your descendants get along when our country is turned into China?Work for nothing or get shot.Try and look further than just the end of your nose,people are corrupt.Getting the government involved is the last resort and its going to fail.Whats next?Walk everywhere,be a peasant while the big wheels fly around in jets off of your labor you perform for some rags and rotten food and die before you are 50?The answer is you fix this mess,whatever it takes.

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ChrisinMO

05-04-2009 11:22:19




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 Re: Union loyalists in reply to BJones, 05-04-2009 08:42:33  
I have an aversion to any large, impersonal organizations big businesses, unions, government, whatever. I have worked for two different big businesses. One had a union, one didn't. The one which had the union DEFINITELY deserved the union and the employees needed the union.

While it would be useful for union leadership and members to understand what is involved in running a business, business managers need to have an understanding of how their actions are effecting people.

Don't usually comment about this kind of stuff, so I hope it is constructive.

Christopher

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Kelly C

05-04-2009 10:07:10




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 Re: Union loyalists in reply to BJones, 05-04-2009 08:42:33  
I would comment:

If you are working for company that is ran by the owner. Non union is the way to go. Owners Tend to make decisions that are for the good of the company in the long term.

If you are working for a company that is owned by share holders. Union all the way Baby!!
Managers make stupid dicisions to fit a quarterly spread sheet.

Simplified I know but its what I have seen.



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rustyfarmall

05-04-2009 10:49:17




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 Re: Union loyalists in reply to Kelly C, 05-04-2009 10:07:10  
Kelly, you just hit the nail right square on the head. I agree.



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noncompos

05-04-2009 09:41:33




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 Re: Union loyalists in reply to BJones, 05-04-2009 08:42:33  
A good question, but it can be turned around, too...
How many business people have worked in a day wages job where workers were worked extra unpaid time, worked in dangerous situations that could easily have been avoided, worked with machinery in dangerous states of unrepair, and when commenting, have been told "There's the road"...
Sure, quit...if there's another job around you can support your family on...
Unions can be as corrupt as Industrialists and their managers, but Unions are dying/being killed off.
Are we heading for an 1800's social structure and economy: a small wealthy class, a vast subsistence level class and a sliver of "middle class" artisans and "professions"?
Who's going to buy your crops, and at what prices?

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Buzzman72

05-04-2009 13:02:17




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 Re: Union loyalists in reply to noncompos, 05-04-2009 09:41:33  
Exactly.

It's like I was telling someone on another thread who was talking about what you eat when you're broke...potatoes are usually cheap, then there are the generic spaghetti and macaroni. Green vegetables, even in the can, are a luxury unless you receive them in a charity box from one of the local churches...or unless you can grow your own. Don't forget dried beans, because they're also cheap. You can feed a family pretty cheap on beans and fried potatoes. Not the healthiest diet, but when it's all you can afford, it's what you eat. And boied potatoes for supper can lead to fried potatoes for breakfast, if you have leftovers.

We're not all that far from that point, best I can see.

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Sid

05-04-2009 09:28:56




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 Re: Union loyalists in reply to BJones, 05-04-2009 08:42:33  
What"s your point?



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Spook

05-04-2009 08:56:18




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 Re: Union loyalists in reply to BJones, 05-04-2009 08:42:33  
I ran a small biz for awhile. It isn't easy, and unions only work in large shops. My dad and grandad also ran their own shops, while being union members. None of us have been union officials, just members. In large companies, having a union helps because disparity in resources. Kinda like if you were going to go to court against a big company, wouldn't you want a lawyer? I worked for some small companies, and ones that the founder or owner was managing could be ok. Absentee owners or 2nd or 3rd generation owners usually suck.

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