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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

E85 Ethanol in a Ford 8N?

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David in Ohio

11-29-2006 04:30:01




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Can I use E85 Ethanol in my 8N? Will it burn hotter or is it richer than 87 octane gasoline? Will it do any harm? Your thoughts?




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n8terry

11-29-2006 11:29:47




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 Re: E85 Ethanol in a Ford 8N? in reply to David in Ohio, 11-29-2006 04:30:01  
This is my 2 cents worth. I have an 8N, and I would never use e85 in it, especially when you can use regular unleaded.

The local college did some research on E85 and found that it worked efficiently in engines with much higher compression ratio. I don't remember the exact ratio, but it was around 11 to 1. This explains why ethanol is used in race cars, especially the winged sprints. When they are running around the track, you can smell it.

If you burn e85 in any low compression engine, you will notice a large increase in consumption.
You will not save any money.

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Gerald J.

11-29-2006 11:19:39




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 Re: E85 Ethanol in a Ford 8N? in reply to David in Ohio, 11-29-2006 04:30:01  
Since Ford's model T and model A engines were made to be adjusted to run on ethanol from their early times, and the 9N engine is about half a flat head V-8 and that V-8 was based on the model A engine but with some poor choices for distributor location, the fuel system of the 9N will probably handle E-85 just fine. Unlike the computer run fuel injected modern engines, it won't switch automatically. So you have to manually tune for it and it takes something like 43% greater volume.

E-85 is about 105 octane so to really make great use of it you can run the compression ratio way up or can run it lean. I don't think you can run it lean enough to make up for all of that 43%. One way to raise the effecive compression ratio is to put on a supercharger. That's more complication than a 9N is worth, in my opinion.

The remaining 15% is supposed to be gasoline, and that magic ratio is supposed to make E-85 start reasonably well in the winter. Less gasoline than that makes for significantly harder cold weather starting. Gasoline at a 5% rate is one of the long used standard denaturants for ethanol. Just makes it hard on the drinker.

Gerald J.

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Fordfarmer

11-29-2006 06:59:34




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 Re: E85 Ethanol in a Ford 8N? in reply to David in Ohio, 11-29-2006 04:30:01  
I haven't tried E85, (not available from my fuel supplier) but I've been running a mix of E85 and regular unleaded in my Jubilee and other gas tractors (varies - currently only a 850, but has also included a 950, 860, and 985 New Holland combine with a Ford 300 6-cyl.)for about 5 years. No problems. Appoximates the 10% mixture you can buy at some gas stations.



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SMA in NE

11-29-2006 06:43:55




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 Re: E85 Ethanol in a Ford 8N? in reply to David in Ohio, 11-29-2006 04:30:01  
A friend of mine only uses E 85 in his JD "D" with no problems.



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jhill52

11-29-2006 06:18:33




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 Re: E85 Ethanol in a Ford 8N? in reply to David in Ohio, 11-29-2006 04:30:01  
I would not do it. I was involved with the development of E85 fuel pums and it does pick water and attacks everything in the old fuel systems.

Jerry



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dhermesc

11-29-2006 05:57:17




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 Re: E85 Ethanol in a Ford 8N? in reply to David in Ohio, 11-29-2006 04:30:01  
Remember these tractors were built when distillant fuels were cheaper then gasoline and many tractors were designed to run (or just run) on either or a mixture. In an old flat head low compression engine E85 will be fine, but you'll need to spend some time adjusting the carb.

Ethanol has lower BTUs so you'll need to enrich the carb mixture. You'll probably find that you're burning more fuel and wiping out any cost saving. International Harvester specifically designed "distillant" tractors with specific intakes, heads and radiator shutters in an attempt to squeeze more efficiency out of the fuel.


In a modern fuel injected car with computer controlled fuel injection you'll run into all kinds of problems attempting to run E85, unless it’s a flex fuel vehicle. They were designed to obtain maximum fuel efficiency from gasoline; E85 will cause all kinds of error codes as the computer attempts to adjust itself for something it’s not designed to operate on.

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RustyFarmall

11-29-2006 06:08:27




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 Re: E85 Ethanol in a Ford 8N? in reply to dhermesc, 11-29-2006 05:57:17  
dhermesc, that is a very good point. The E-85 would cause many problems in a computer controlled, fuel injected car. A 60+ year old tractor has niether a computer or fuel injection.



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RustyFarmall

11-29-2006 05:37:51




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 Re: E85 Ethanol in a Ford 8N? in reply to David in Ohio, 11-29-2006 04:30:01  
There is nothing in the fuel system of an 8n or 9n ford that will be damaged. There are no exotic rubber parts or parts made of exotic metals. What you will find though is that the e-85 does not have as much energy or btus as gasoline, therefore the tractor will not have as much power, and may even run very rough. I think it is possible to modify the fuel system to allow a substantially increased amount of fuel to pass through into the engine, and you would possibly also need to greatly increase the compression rating of the engine. If someone had the time and the money to do some experimenting, I think it would be possible to run these old tractors on 100% ethanol.

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1936

11-29-2006 05:19:27




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 Re: E85 Ethanol in a Ford 8N? in reply to David in Ohio, 11-29-2006 04:30:01  
Is less than gas, but never use it in anything not built for it usage! You will for it in the future in repairs.



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Bus Driver

11-29-2006 05:18:49




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 Re: E85 Ethanol in a Ford 8N? in reply to David in Ohio, 11-29-2006 04:30:01  
It would be a serious mistake to put the E85 in your tractor. But go ahead and do it and the question will then be fully answered for you.



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Cliff (VA)

11-29-2006 04:51:05




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 Re: E85 Ethanol in a Ford 8N? in reply to David in Ohio, 11-29-2006 04:30:01  
I have an E-85 equiped Dodge Grand Caravan. I have also worked in the automotive industry. My company had quite a few problems with E-85 compatible fuel pumps.

E-85 is 85% ethanol. It is a very corrosive fuel, mostly due to the fact that the other 15% is mostly water. If you use it in an 8N be prepared to have all the steel parts in the fuel system rust (tank, fuel lines, etc.)

I seriously would not recommend it.

I wish that I could find a source for E-85 because I am dying to try it in my van. I have had the van 7 years and have yet to be able to buy E-85 fuel.

Good Luck,

Cliff (VA)

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nw_bearcat

11-29-2006 05:33:57




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 Re: E85 Ethanol in a Ford 8N? in reply to Cliff (VA), 11-29-2006 04:51:05  
You may want to check that. E-85 may be 15% water, but that is not what makes it 85.

E-85 is 85% pure ethanol mixed with 15% gasoline to prevent human consumption. So while the product may be 15% water, it is not 85% ethanol+15% water = E-85. Follow?



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Cliff (VA)

11-29-2006 11:22:38




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 Re: E85 Ethanol in a Ford 8N? in reply to nw_bearcat, 11-29-2006 05:33:57  
Well I stand corrected. E-85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.

I do know that my company had problems due to corrosion of electrical parts immersed in E-85.

E-85 is corrosive, particularly to magnesium, aluminum, rubber, and cork. It will also rust steel if it is contaminated with water (almost impossible to prevent). Flex fuel vehicles use stainless steel or plastic lined stainless steel fuel lines and tanks. If you are curious there is a whole lot of information in Wikipedia on this subject.

Your tractor, your call.

Cliff (VA)

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bosu

11-29-2006 04:50:21




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 Re: E85 Ethanol in a Ford 8N? in reply to David in Ohio, 11-29-2006 04:30:01  
e-85 will not work i understand there are only a few cars that can burn this as well special gaskets etc.



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Wayne Swenson

11-29-2006 06:11:51




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 Re: E85 Ethanol in a Ford 8N? in reply to bosu, 11-29-2006 04:50:21  
third party image

My son manages an Ethanol plant & brought some 95% ethanol to try in our 1937 BN John Deere. I started on the old gasoline mixture and began to lean out when the Ethanol got to the carburetor. I turned the high speed & low speed mixture screws out (richer) about ½ turn each & it ran just like it was supposed to. When the engine is cold, I have to start on gasoline and switch over; just like the old days with distillate for the main fuel source. The exhaust surely smells nice; could almost get a high off of it!!

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RustyFarmall

11-29-2006 08:46:15




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 Re: E85 Ethanol in a Ford 8N? in reply to Wayne Swenson, 11-29-2006 06:11:51  
Excellent. Is it impossible to start on E-85 when it's cold, or just difficult?



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Wayne Swenson

11-29-2006 09:06:15




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 Re: E85 Ethanol in a Ford 8N? in reply to RustyFarmall, 11-29-2006 08:46:15  
If your electric starter can spin the engine fast enough, no problem. The 1937 BN JD is hand crank so my "armstrong starter" efforts are not quite good enough



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RustyFarmall

11-29-2006 10:39:38




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 Re: E85 Ethanol in a Ford 8N? in reply to Wayne Swenson, 11-29-2006 09:06:15  
Makes sense. The local fillerup station here had plans to start offering the E-85, but so far i have not seen it. I will be trying it out in my Farmalls when it becomes available.



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