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Is this Live PTO?

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Tim

06-30-2003 19:10:23




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Looking at a tractor to purchase. The owner doesn't know what Live PTO means, but says the tractor has a two stage clutch. He says that the hydraulic lift will work in Neutral, and that the clutch will start the PTO running part of the way up, and then the tractor will move when the clutch is fully released.

What type of PTO is this?




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ed

07-02-2003 09:58:39




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 Re: Is this Live PTO? in reply to Tim, 06-30-2003 19:10:23  
Wow!

IPTO is when the PTO operates completely independant of the transmission with its own clutch system. Transmission clutch in, out, or depressed slightly - no effedt on the PTO.

Live PTO I allways thought came from some sort of dual stage clutch setup. press the clutch part way down and the tractor stops, press the clutch all the way down and the PTO also stops.

Gear PTO is connected to the transmission. When you press the clutch down everything stops.

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Aces

06-30-2003 20:17:29




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 Re: Is this Live PTO? in reply to Tim, 06-30-2003 19:10:23  
I could never understand the difference between live and independent both mean that PTO is nor driven but the tranny, and that is what one wants must be 4 or 5 ways to do it or more Ford had one way Oliver had other IH had other JD different M&W had other.



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JMS/MN

06-30-2003 22:16:22




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 Re: Re: Is this Live PTO? in reply to Aces, 06-30-2003 20:17:29  
Independent pto is driven by the engine by it's own clutch- it CAN run whenever the engine is running,irregardless of the position of the clutch controlling forward/rearward motion of the tractor. Live pto is any pto that can remain running while the tractor's forward/rearward motion is stopped. Some use a two stage clutch, or a separate hand clutch (like WD, other AC tractors). WD has live power, but the tractor's foot clutch has to be disengaged in order to get the pto into gear.

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Robert in W. Mi

07-01-2003 15:24:43




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 Re: Re: Re: Is this Live PTO? in reply to JMS/MN, 06-30-2003 22:16:22  
I don't agree with what you said because ALL "live" PTO setups have two clutches. Some use a double clutch within the foot clutch, others have a electric switch to rurn them or a lever to turn them on. None run the tranny or rearend. But, they are all "live" PTO.

"Independent" PTO, means you turn the PTO on "independently" of the foot clutch. Usually it's by pulling a lever, or these days by flipping an electric switch on, on the dash.

All the tractors that run the PTO through the tranny (like a Allis Chalmers WD) really aren't live PTO, they are just putting a second clutch to stop one side of the rearend. The tranny is still running, one axle is still running, and so is the rearend. These are the tractors that are in the "grey" area of what "live" PTO is, but they "really" aren't "live". They do work as well as a live PTO setup though.

Robert

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Eldon

07-02-2003 07:52:41




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Is this Live PTO? in reply to Robert in W. Mi, 07-01-2003 15:24:43  

Robert I think you are talking about the Allis CA model which used an axle clutch to break the motion of the tractor. The other AC models did not use this set-up, but one that JMS describes..



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JMS/MN

07-02-2003 00:31:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Is this Live PTO? in reply to Robert in W. Mi, 07-01-2003 15:24:43  
A WD Allis has a live pto- the transmission gears are not turning, nor is either rear axle, or the rear end. The hand clutch is FORWARD of the transmission, differential, and rear axles. And yes, the two clutches are what provides live power. The WD pto does not run through the transmission- it comes off behind the foot clutch, and before the hand clutch. Just check the diagram in the manual. And yes, independent is just what I said- it is controlled by it's own clutch, coming off of the engine flywheel,independent of anything that happens rearward of it.

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Robert in W. Mi

07-02-2003 15:03:43




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is this Live PTO? in reply to JMS/MN, 07-02-2003 00:31:07  
You guys are right, i was thinking CA and saying WD. Thanks for catching that. Robert



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JMS/MN

07-02-2003 23:53:49




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is this Live PTO? in reply to Robert in W. Mi, 07-02-2003 15:03:43  
Yup, the CA is different- didn't know that until a couple of years ago- the hand clutch, which was an option on early models, just stopped the wheel from turning, but it makes sense, since the hydraulic pump and pto are mounted at the rear of the tractor, behind the transmission, and differential. What AC came up with in '48 with the WD was a very cheap alternative to IPTO, and yet provided the farmer with a live pto, much improved over the previous power source. For most mfgrs, IPTO was a 50s idea.

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paul

07-01-2003 22:03:04




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Is this Live PTO? in reply to Robert in W. Mi, 07-01-2003 15:24:43  
Well, I'd be confused after reading these 2 messages..... ;)

Live pto is either the newer independent pto, which is run by it's own lever and it doesn't matter what you are doing with the clutch foot pedal;

Or, it is the 2 stage clutch which the original poster described. (Yes, your tractor would have the live, 2-stage pto.)

I'm not familiar what a WD has, but could not figure it out from those descriptions... ;) I have heard of M&W conversions for IHC tractors that will turn the H or M into a live pto by letting one axle spin free. But didn't know that came standard on any tractor. Maybe that is what you are describing?

Most 2-stage clutch systems use hollow output shafts, spinning concentric clutches - first one controls the tranny, second one controls the pto. The farther down you push the clutch, it disengages the first clutch, then the second. Has NOTHING to do with neutral.....

--->Paul

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Robert in W. Mi

07-02-2003 15:18:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is this Live PTO? in reply to paul, 07-01-2003 22:03:04  
I can see why this is so confuseing. I should have proofed my last answer. I'm an Allis fan, and i still got the series mixed up!

Bottom line is, "IF" the PTO is still running when the foot clutch is all the way down, and the tractor doesn't have the axle disconnect, it's "live power"! No matter how it's turned on.

"IF" you turn the PTO on with out useing the foot clutch or axle disconect, it's "independent" PTO. The engagment is "independent" of the foot clutch.

Hope this clears it up,

Robert

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Jim.UT

06-30-2003 19:35:42




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 Re: Is this Live PTO? in reply to Tim, 06-30-2003 19:10:23  
Sounds like you're describing a live pto as I understand it. What is it? A Ford 860? MF 65?

Having the lift work with the clutch pushed down is what's known as live hydraulics.



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