Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Fordson Tractors Discussion Forum

Anyone had this before?

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
Skyhawk Greg

05-16-2006 10:06:16




Report to Moderator

On a discussion forum, I like to be able to contribute to the knowledge pool of information. Unfortunately, the whole concept of having a Fordson Model F is new to me, so I must pay my dues, and respectfully ask for your help in trying to find the cause of a misfire condition in cylinder #2 of a 1923 Fordson.

The short version is that cylinders #1, 3, and 4 purr smoothly, but #2 snaps and crackles constantly like it has a full race cam. No loud, and sudden bangs, but it is still disturbing never-the-less.

Here is the long version:
* It is being run on gasoline only
* When switching coil positions within the coilbox, the problem stays with cylinder #2
* All of the coils have been set at about 1.3 amp draw
* Hold down any combination of two coils with your finger, and the engine seems to run about the same rpm under each condition. However, whenever #2 is one of the cylinders that is running, the cackling is present.
* Machined the old commutator to get rid of the waves. No difference. Installed a brand new cast iron commutator and roller. No difference.
* Ran a new wire from the commutator to the coil box for #2. No difference.
* Completely isolated the #2 coil with it's own voltage source, wire from the commutator, and high tension wire to the plug. No difference.
* Changed the #2 plug wire. No difference.
* Cleaned the #2 plug, and then swapped with #1. No difference.
* Adjusted both the high and low adjustments to 1-1/4 turns outward on the Kingston carburetor. Waited until the tractor was warm, then set the high while at high speed, and the low while at low speed. They both ended up about where they started. No difference in the miss.
* Sprayed starting fluid all around the intake manifold near cylinder #2. No change in rpm. No differences in any other way.
* The cackling happens whether running off a battery or the magneto.
* As the rpm increases, the cackling blends more into the overall tone of the exhaust, and there is only the occasional miss.
* The aircleaner is a paper element. No water is used.
* There is no muffler of any sort on this tractor. Just a straight exhaust pipe that exits behind the differential.

I don't see how the piston rings could cause this, so the only thing left that I can think of is that carbon is on the exhaust valve of cylinder #2, or the exhaust spring may be weak. Thought about spraying a little water into the intake while running to break away the carbon.

Has this happened to anybody else?

Thank you,
Greg

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
Theman

06-03-2006 09:49:53




Report to Moderator
 Re: Anyone had this before? in reply to Skyhawk Greg, 05-16-2006 10:06:16  
I agree with an earlier post - it most likely is in the valves. My '23 Fordson had much what you described except it was on cylinder #1. It wasn't until I had a dead miss on another cylinder that made me take the valve tappet cover off and have a look. Under all that black stuff that had once been engine oil, I found that the tapered hole in the #2 exhaust valve cap had worn enough to pop right off the valve stem. Thankfully, it was a flathead engine or a loose valve would have been lethal. I made some oversized keepers to fit the spring cap. That was the dead miss.

The #1 cylinder exhaust valve spring looked funny so it was removed too. The problem was then found to be that one of the keepers was installed upside down! This forced the valve spring cap crooked and it, in turn, put a side load on the valve wearing both the valve stem and the guide. Not wishing to tear my Fordson too far down, I put it back together correctly to see what the engine would do. It ran so smoothly I left it that way.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Skyhawk Greg

06-06-2006 09:38:58




Report to Moderator
 Re: Anyone had in reply to Theman, 06-03-2006 09:49:53  
Thanks. Looks like the valves need looked at.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
stevewelker

05-18-2006 05:23:07




Report to Moderator
 Re: Anyone had this before? in reply to Skyhawk Greg, 05-16-2006 10:06:16  
Just wanted to add, most fordsons even at their best are not the smoothest runing old tractors, compared to IH, Case, and other 4 cylinder tractors of the same era. We do have a few that will just sit a purr at an idle, while others stumble, and gallop at an idle but smooth out with speed. What is wierd is engine smoothness does not always go hand in hand with how good the internals are, and i can't tell you why. My guess is it has to do with engine balance, with some tractors being lucky with better matched internals. Or poor carburation design. The 2nd fordson we ever restored is probally the smoothest running of the bunch and has probally the worst internals (worn pistons, very thin valves, spider craked valve seats, and so forth) since we did not have any spare parts at the time. It does have a 6cyl 1950's truck carb adapted to the manifold since we didn't have an original at the time. We now have parts to put it to original, but why mess with it when it purrs so nice.
You are correct in that the loud exaust makes it hard to hear how the engine is truely running. I have a long Muffler that I slip on the tail pipe when tunning so I can hear better whats going on. Be warned, this lets you also here all the internal rattles from cam gears and lifters, to pulley gears. As long as it ain't the bearings or wrist pins, most of these rattles are harmless.
I think you're on the right track, keep at it. Old Fordsons can be made to start very easy and run great, contrary to most old stories you hear.
-Steve

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
SteveWelker

05-17-2006 10:00:00




Report to Moderator
 Re: Anyone had this before? in reply to Skyhawk Greg, 05-16-2006 10:06:16  
Wow! You say you don't know much about fordsons, but it sounds like you did everything I would do and I've been 'playing' with fordsons for over 20 years. One thing you did not mention, but I think you eliminated when you isolated the coil, is make sure the little spring contacts in the back of the coil box for the coils are making good contact to the studs for the wires. Sometimes you need to take the studs out and clean everything up with some black sandpaper to remove any tarnish.
I do agree with you as it sounds like either a valve not seating perfect or a weak spring, most likely not seating. You can check this with air pressure if you rings are pretty good by using an adapter at the spark plug hole on top dead center compression stroke and listening for air at the exhaust or carb. You did not say if you had the engine apart, but it is common in old fordsons to have crappy seating valves, or ones that have been ground way to many times. Good valves make the engine run so much smoother.
Two final notes, One is it truely a misfire or just an uneven running, There are different weight Fordson pistons, and some are flat tops and some are domed. I've taken apart engines with mismatched pistons many times and always wondered how uneven they would have ran. I guess the old guys used whatever they could get. I have a running 1923 with one cylinder @ 0.050 oversize and you can detect a distinct gallop at lower speeds as than one piston makes more power and is a little heavier. And two, In my experience the horizontal Kingston carb is difficult to get a tractor to run smooth at low speeds. They seem to work excellent underload at higher speeds, but alway never seem to idle great. Under load the carb and elbow get real cold to the touch and seem to work great, but when at an idle the manfold heat soaks up and effects the mixture as it vaporizes more fuel. Also these manifolds can burn thru inside where the heat sink plug sticks up in and the exhaust can contaminate the fuel mix, but that normally makes all 4 cylinders run like crap. Enough rambling, hope this helps. Good luck.
-Steve

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Skyhawk Greg

05-17-2006 10:42:00




Report to Moderator
 Re: Anyone had this before? in reply to SteveWelker, 05-17-2006 10:00:00  
Steve -

You are right, I forgot to mention anything about the little spring contacts. What I did was to remove the nuts and completely remove the springs. I then wire brushed and sandpapered everything that could transmit electricity. The plastic that holds everything in place was then completely cleaned with alcohol to eliminate the possibility of electrical leakage to the surrounding coil box. Actually, after doing this, and still having the problem, is when I decided to completely remove the coil from the coilbox and connect it up electrically. This eliminated anything having to do with the coilbox or connections.

I did not have the engine apart, and have only owned this tractor for about two weeks. When it arrived at my house, it was a complete mystery to me. Was not even sure how to start it - if you can imagine that! There is good reason to believe that the engine was rebuilt not too long ago, based upon what I was told. The overall condition of everything that is observable, is good. The person who owned it died suddenly, and his brother sold it to me as part of settling the estate. The deceased person is well known for having things that are restored without regard for expense, and then preserving them under ideal conditions. So I have not torn the engine apart myself, and do not know first hand what it looks like inside. I will put together a way to test leakage with compressed air as you suggest.

As far as misfire vs uneven running, you may just have a point there. That is precisely why I mentioned that there is no muffler on the exhaust system. Perhaps the lack of noise reduction tends to exaggerate any unequalities from cylinder to cylinder. Again though, I have never heard a Fordson run prior to this one, and this may be completely normal. It is just that I am having a hard time accepting that three cylinders run one way, and the fourth runs another.

I have played with the Kingston adjustments to the point that I am satisfied that they are as correct as they are ever going to be. You are right, there is quite a temperature drop within the intake system. It really makes you think about the carb-ice problems that pilots have!

Thank you for your advice and help. Greg

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy