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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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Block on TO-20

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Texas Denny

03-10-2008 16:56:38




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I bought a TO-20 with a water in the oil problem. The head was off so I couldn't examine the head gasket. The owner said the block was cracked. I filled the block with water but it doesn't leak down into the pan with that much head. The owner said he had posted on this site and learned this is a common problem. Is it? Or are cracked heads common? Or are blown head gaskets? I haven't finished cleaning up the head and pressure testing it. The head gasket is gone so will not provide a clue. If I don't find anything in the head, I'll start looking at the block.

Thanks for any insight.

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cdmn

03-12-2008 18:29:05




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 Re: Block on TO-20 in reply to Texas Denny, 03-10-2008 16:56:38  
I had same problem. When I went to work to take the head off, I found that the previous owner hadn't torqued the headbolts tight. So in this case it was leaking past the headgasket. It ran reasonably well, but didn't take long for the oil to be ruined.



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Fred Martin

03-11-2008 14:15:04




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 Re: Block on TO-20 in reply to Texas Denny, 03-10-2008 16:56:38  
Just between you, me and the deep blue sea...I would drain the oil, separate the water out of it and put it right back in and put a new head gasket on it and two cans of Barrs stop leak or some other quality sealer (no horse tuurds or pepper) in the radiator and let her get good and hot and go from there. If you solved your problem grin and let us know. If you didn't, I have used a new head gasket over with no problems...just torque it on the high side the second time around. ohfred

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Texas Denny

03-11-2008 14:45:16




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 Re: Block on TO-20 in reply to Fred Martin, 03-11-2008 14:15:04  
My thoughts exactly. I've been through this on other tractors - Allis and Case. In those cases it was the seals at the bottom of the sleeves. but when I fill the block there is no leak. Since the previous owner said the head gasket fell apart when he removed it, there is a good chance the head gasket is the problem. First, I'll do a thorough cleaning of the head and pressure test it after removing all of the valves. If I can't find anything on the head, I'll just get a new head gasket and give it a whirl. It could be that simple. I've seen it go this way with car engines so it could be the deal here, too.

Thanks,

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gshadel

03-11-2008 07:49:30




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 Re: Block on TO-20 in reply to Texas Denny, 03-10-2008 16:56:38  
Tex,
What Jerry says is true. It is also to be expected on a 50 yr old tractor for the head gasket to blow and leak coolant thru also. It is also common for the rubber O-rings around the base of the cylinders to dry-out, crack and allow coolant to pass into the pan.
Drop your oil pan, try to wire wheel between the cylinders, if you can, and look for cracks between the web. If you have cracks in the bottom of the block, or bad O-rings, I would think you would see water dripping thru with the block full of water. If you don't, you can try a new head gasket, make sure the head is not warped. Run a can of block sealer. and see how that works for you.

George

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Texas Denny

03-11-2008 07:56:06




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 Re: Block on TO-20 in reply to gshadel, 03-11-2008 07:49:30  
Thanks.



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Jerry/MT

03-10-2008 20:07:02




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 Re: Block on TO-20 in reply to Texas Denny, 03-10-2008 16:56:38  
The Z series blocks are prone to cracking if the tractor gets overheated. The cracks commonly occur at the small web between the cylinders. My original block was cracked and repaired with threaded tension rods that went through the water jacket between the cylinders and were tensioned with nust to pull both sides of the block together. It obviously worked because I didn"t have water in the oil. When it was plum wore out I replaced it with a remanufactured block that had a furnace braze repaired for it"s cracks. It is still running like a top and has over 350 hours on the engine.

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Jim in OH

03-11-2008 11:01:54




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 Re: Block on TO-20 in reply to Jerry/MT, 03-10-2008 20:07:02  

Jerry/MT said: (quoted from post at 20:07:02 03/10/08) The Z series blocks are prone to cracking if the tractor gets overheated. The cracks commonly occur at the small web between the cylinders. .....


It is my conclusion that the Z series blocks are prone to crack REGARDLESS of overheating. Granted, abuse (overheating, freezing, etc.) will make it worse, but I can't remember when I've seen a wet sleeve block design with such thin sections between cylinders (top or bottom)... even without overheating (which first aggravates the top of the block), the webs at the bottom of the coolant jacket (which are last to lose coolant and the very last part to overheat) will develop fatigue cracks that can propagate into the center main bearing as well... That is the case with my block.. top is perfect.. bottom has hairline cracks...

also, question for Jerry.. the rods that you speak of.. did they go all the way through the tractor i.e., through the pushrod galley to the outside, or did they terminate inside the galley.. also what size rods were they? Doesn't seem to me that there is room for more than about 3/16" and it would have to go through the stiffening web as well.. Jim in OH

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Jerry/MT

03-11-2008 11:40:37




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 Re: Block on TO-20 in reply to Jim in OH, 03-11-2008 11:01:54  
While I have no direct experience with overheating a Z block, several people who post on this site say they have had Z block Fergusons since new and never had a cracking problem with them. Several other have stated that the cracks are always in the top part of the block and can propagate to the main bearing supports. All this is anecdotal, Jim, so I offer it for whatever it"s worth. The Ferguson Furrows (FENA newsletter)recently had an article a old dealer back in the "50"s I believe and mentioned he was storing 100 or so blocks that were replaced under warranty until he could repair them. Again, anecdotal, but this supports your contention that some blocks may have had flaws from the git go since they were replaced under warranty (within the first year of use?)and it"s hard to imagine 100 cases of failures all caused by overheating within the same dealership. Whether it was a design flaw, QC problems with the casting, or both I can"t say. Since there appears to be a substanial number of uncracked blocks out there. I"d guess it was just poor QC. (One can justifiably argue that a design that can"t be reliably produced is a poor design.)This was the post war boom time and Continental was probably pumping out motors like hell wouldn"t have it. These were not aircraft engines so if they failed, the consequences were not fatal.(Tell that to the guy who"s hay is laying on the ground and he can"t bale because his new tractor crapped out!)

Anyway, regarding the tension rods, I never measured the diameter but they were small diameter. My guess would be 0.125" OD and they went through to both sides of the block so the tension adjustment was external. When I rebuilt the head on the original engine and cleaned up the block deck, I found the cracks and I was concerned. But there was no evidence of any leakage on the old head gasket, on the block or in the crankcase.

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cdmn

03-12-2008 18:19:52




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 Re: Block on TO-20 in reply to Jerry/MT, 03-11-2008 11:40:37  
0.125 rods wouldn't have enough engineering strength to do the job. Try 1/2 or 3/8 inch. Someone posted pictures sometime back. Nickle is usually added to cast iron to make it tougher, etc. During the Korean war, it was in strategic short supply. Even the chrome on cars was substandard. They may have cut it back too far.



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Jim in OH

03-12-2008 19:50:44




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 Re: Block on TO-20 in reply to cdmn, 03-12-2008 18:19:52  

cdmn said: (quoted from post at 18:19:52 03/12/08) 0.125 rods wouldn't have enough engineering strength to do the job. Try 1/2 or 3/8 inch. Someone posted pictures sometime back. .....


YOu got me curious now... I'll measure... but I don't think that there is that much space between the cylinders... maybe 3/8, but you'd have to be spot on... and still go through the block outer casting web.. I'll get a pic too..

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cdmn

03-12-2008 18:24:17




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 Re: Block on TO-20 in reply to cdmn, 03-12-2008 18:19:52  
Do a search on Dan Collins in the archives



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Jim in OH

03-11-2008 13:15:35




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 Re: Block on TO-20 in reply to Jerry/MT, 03-11-2008 11:40:37  

Jerry/MT said: (quoted from post at 11:40:37 03/11/08) .....Several other have stated that the cracks are always in the top part of the block and can propagate to the main bearing supports. .... Since there appears to be a substanial number of uncracked blocks out there. ..... .


I don't have all that much experience on the Ferguson engines either... but my block has no cracks at the top and does have cracks at the bottom. The cylinder hole castings, looking from the side, are slightly mismatched vertically, like cores that were not placed precisely, with cracks at the part line... but this is not an early TO-30, many years from start of produciton, and I suspect systemic.. it is a 1953. I am considering putting the rods in like yours was, but it seems to me that you have to go through the outside webs, which makes it weaker..

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Jerry/MT

03-12-2008 12:38:54




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 Re: Block on TO-20 in reply to Jim in OH, 03-11-2008 13:15:35  
You have an advantage over me in that you have the block to look at and I"m going from memory. I think QC or lack there of was responsible for the cracking in these blocks. Thin wall casting is much better today than it was in the late "40"s and early "50"s.

The rods that I remember in my old engine were no more that 0.125" OD max, maybe even 3/32". Since the cracks in your block are in the lower end of the "sleeve supports", I would assume that you"d have to lower the position of the tension rods to the area where the cracks are located. You can"t go too low because you an run in to an oil gallery, the cam, etc. But with some careful thought and planning, you might be able to make it work.

You live in Ohio, an area with a lot of heavy industry, and I gotta" believe there are many shops that do braze repairs on these cast iron blocks near you some where. You can"t believe the damage that I have seen repaired with this method. I think I related the Case backhoe engine that I saw reapired this way. The main bearing supports (2 of 4 supports as I recall)were cracked all the way through from the top of the block area to the journal bore. There were additional cracks in the cylinder area. The block was braze repaired, align bored and rebuilt and was running and the unit was in use the last time I saw it. If I had seen it before they had sent it off for repair, I would had said they were nuts for trying to repair it. As I recall, the repair cost was not that excessive and was competitive with the price of a used block. You"re a pretty clever mechanical guy so I"m sure you can figure out a way to use tension rods on your problem if it is possible to do so. However, the location of the cracks in your block make locating tension rods more challenging than in those that have cracks in the upper part of the block and a braze repair might be the only way to accomplish the task in your case.

Hope these comments are of some use to you.

Regards,
Jerry

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