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Crack Saga II

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Melville Will

06-19-2007 12:15:29

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Hi, all,

There may be a glimmer of hope that my trusty TO30 will rise again. I�d written before about difficulties getting my cracked block repaired, so much so that the project was at a standstill with no resolution in sight. In talking with Farmland Tractor this morning, they seem to have thrown in the towel and have shipped my block off for repair and machining. They said it�s still a week or two out (I heard that in April, too) but at least it sounds like things are moving again. I�m still convinced these are really good guys to work with and I know they"ll stand behind their work. Paul there also made it sound like mine wasn�t the only one up there so maybe there is one in the pipeline with your name on it too, Jim (in OH).

Incidentally, I did talk to Dave at Midwest Cylinder Head in Iowa also, and I would have no qualms about sending work their way either. They seemed like good people at a very capable outfit.

So if the light at the end of the tunnel is not from an oncoming train I may be set. Thanks to all who have written about this.

Bill

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Jim in OH

06-20-2007 20:21:02

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Re: Crack Saga II in reply to Melville Will, 06-19-2007 12:15:29

[quote="Jerry/MT"](quoted from post at 16:06:59 06/20/07) CR is a volume ratio(Vt@BDC/Vt@TDC) not a pressure ratio so I'm not sure what you mean about that relationship to pressure.

Of course, that is its definition; who said CR was a pressure ratio but it certainly relates directly to pressure ratio (and temperature ratio) at TDC/BDC before ignition... Assume isentropic compression (which is almost true), then

P@TDC/P@BDC=(Vt@BDC/Vt@TDC)^k = CR^k

(where ^k is shorthand like in EXCEL for the exponent, i.e., ratio of specific heats)

Yes the cylinder pressures are dropped by the intake losses but the inlet temperature remains constant for that process and is only increased by heat transfer in the case of the one piece Continental intake/exhaust manifold.

Don't care about inlet temperature... I didn't change that.. just power (as related to the mass of the charge directly proportional to inlet pressure) and efficiency (as related to CR)... Rearrange the above (assume perfect gas law) then the temperature ratio is directly related to the compression ratio as well and only goes up by nominally the 0.4 power of compression ratio.
T@TDC/T@BDC= CR^(k-1)

As I recall, the octane requirements are driven more by the stagnation temperature in the cylinder and that's a function of the ambient temperature, any delta Q through the induction system and the compression ratio. Recall that a frictional process does not affect stagnation temprature. The old aircraft piston engines used water-alchohol injection in the manifold to suppress detonation on hot days. Olsmobile had a supercharged engine in the old Cutlass in the 60's I believe and they also used water/alchohol to suppress detonation on hot days.

I think you'll find that the cooling will be driven more by the max cycle temperature which is driven by ambient temperature, fuel/air ratio and compression ratio.

Well, assuming same ambient temperature.. same fuel air ratio... then it is only Compression ratio.. no doubt the cooling requirement goes up some, but not as much as the power since efficiency is improved... and the added E85 was primarily for the higher octane, but it will lower the intake and therefore the peak temperatures as well with higher heat of vaporization and slightly higher fuel to air ratio....

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Matt L

06-20-2007 18:50:41

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Re: Crack Saga II in reply to Melville Will, 06-19-2007 12:15:29

Sounds like a fun ferguson engine.

Mines not quite that "wild" Just a ported head, manifolds, 3 angle valve job and balancing. I was gonna go big bore but this is a toy that I dont wanna work on anymore or screw ( more cracks?) with if and when i get it done.

Decided to play it safe since I have over $1000 in the shortblock alone.

Hope ya get ur block back - sounds lieka fun project.

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mike mcmurray

06-20-2007 17:39:30

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Re: Crack Saga II in reply to Melville Will, 06-19-2007 12:15:29

yeh, devon lane in belchertown ma....ask for will.....I had my to 20 block done there this winter.....they still do a lot of them....good luck.

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Haze

06-19-2007 19:50:32

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Re: Crack Saga II in reply to Melville Will, 06-19-2007 12:15:29

I've heard the massey/ferg place in Belchertown,Ma. has someone that does this work. Devon Lane equip. I believe they have a website.Good luck.

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Haze

06-19-2007 19:50:24

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Re: Crack Saga II in reply to Melville Will, 06-19-2007 12:15:29

I've heard the massey/ferg place in Belchertown,Ma. has someone that does this work. Devon Lane equip. I believe they have a website.Good luck.

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Jim in OH

06-19-2007 15:43:13

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Re: Crack Saga II in reply to Melville Will, 06-19-2007 12:15:29

After hearing your story, I called and talked to them, too... "My" block (remember they were supplying it, soit wasn't really mine yet) is still in limbo... with the responsible person (I presume Randy) on vacation and no projected date to finish, so I canceled it.. I wasn't under the impression, though, that they were "throwing in the towel" completely, just that things were delayed.... In any event, I also think that these are "good guys".. they just "bit off more than they could chew...".. I'll just have to give up on that modified engine that I was going to make... and stick with the stock version that I am still putting together.... Jim

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Melville Will

06-19-2007 22:09:36

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Crack Saga II in reply to Jim in OH, 06-19-2007 15:43:13

Jim,

What sort of modification were you planning to do? Sounds interesting....

Bill

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Jim in OH

06-20-2007 05:54:26

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Re: Crack Saga II in reply to Melville Will, 06-19-2007 22:09:36

What I had planned was 160 ci (3.52 bore by 4.125 stroke) at about 9.4 compression ratio yielding about 40 Hp at 2000 rpm� and with a little manifold work expected about 48 Hp at 2400 rpm. Had all the engine performance calculations done, all the parts specified and all the bottom and top clearances worked out� and I already have the crank all done and waiting, and I was just waiting for the block so I could have the custom sleeves made and installed. As it stands right now, I am losing interest. I�ll probably put the stroked crank in my stock block using all of the stock kit components (except for some minor mods to the rods and the pistons) giving almost 148 ci (3.375 bore by 4.125 stroke) at a 8.6 compression ratio yielding about 35.5 Hp at 2000 rpm and still may do some manifold/carb work to try to get it opened up a little to 2400 rpm which would then be a little more than 42 Hp. Anyway, it was fun doing the engineering... there are surprisingly lots of choices... In fact, I discovered that even without stroking there are cheap flat top auto pistons available (that fit the available 3.375 sleeves) that will raise the compression ratio to about 8.9 that should give you almost 10% more Hp than stock. Jim

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Jerry/MT

06-20-2007 10:21:25

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Re: Crack Saga II in reply to Jim in OH, 06-20-2007 05:54:26

Man, that's an ambitious project, Jim! Would Premium pump gas allow those compression ratios? How about cooling? Might need a smaller diameter pulley on the water pump.With that increase in displacment, you need a bigger exhaust as well as a larger intake manifold plus port and polish. Any changes to the cam?

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Jim in OH

06-20-2007 11:53:28

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Re: Crack Saga II in reply to Jerry/MT, 06-20-2007 10:21:25

As you know, the volumetric efficiency of this engine is probably 70% maybe less... so the effective combustion pressures while running fast are significantly lower than with a good breathing intake, so 9.4 is probably more equivalent to a nominal CR 7 at these higher speeds... but even at low speed and WOT, pump premium 93 octane is probably good to about 9.5 CR... and if that is was not good enough, I was going to start mixing in E85 (and enriching the mixture). Cooling might be an issue if I worked it that hard very long but thermal efficiency would have been actually better (higher CR), so the thermal losses are a lower percentage of the total (even though the totals would be up..) and with a good clean system, it should be okay. It was probably overdesigned to operate in a dirty and fouled environment anyway... The old auto systems that I have analyzed were typically double or triple the minimum clean requirement... Also, for daily use, I was not intending to push it that hard.. the extra HP was for the dyno numbers and probably a little tractor pulling.. Exhaust shouldn't be an issue.. 30-50% more volume is not a big deal (like it would be at the intake). The exhaust distance is short and I was going to use an straight large open vertical anyway... these are not tuned exhausts, although I was going to play with the length. The real problem is getting the air in, not out... and looking at the TO30 intake, most of the junk ahead of the carb can be bypassed or eliminated using a modern pleated paper element at the inlet... also the carb throat and immediately downstream is very small (not much more than 1 inch diameter), so could be greatly improved. Not much can be done with the valves, except a little lift (which I was not going to do), and not enough room for bigger valves but the ports are typically poorly matched to the intake so a little help here may mean much later.. It was going to be somewhat of an experimental undertaking to see what I could get out of it. Now I think I will just finish it with the stroked crank, put it on the dyno to get a real engine Hp, T vs rpm curve and call it quits... won't be stock Ferguson, but should be something to look at... I have a std crank too, and could get the "stock" numbers, but that means taking it apart twice and like I said.. I am losing interet.. "Stock" numbers wouldn't actually be stock anyway because the bore now is 3.375 compared to the stock 3.25 that is not available anymore.... Jim

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Jerry/MT

06-20-2007 16:06:59

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Re: Crack Saga II in reply to Jim in OH, 06-20-2007 11:53:28

CR is a volume ratio(Vt@BDC/Vt@TDC) not a pressure ratio so I'm not sure what you mean about that relationship to pressure. Yes the cylinder pressures are dropped by the intake losses but the inlet temperature remains constant for that process and is only increased by heat transfer in the case of the one piece Continental intake/exhaust manifold.

As I recall, the octane requirements are driven more by the stagnation temperature in the cylinder and that's a function of the ambient temperature, any delta Q through the induction system and the compression ratio. Recall that a frictional process does not affect stagnation temprature. The old aircraft piston engines used water-alchohol injection in the manifold to suppress detonation on hot days. Olsmobile had a supercharged engine in the old Cutlass in the 60's I believe and they also used water/alchohol to suppress detonation on hot days.
I think you'll find that the cooling will be driven more by the max cycle temperature which is driven by ambient tmperature, fuel/air ratio and compression ratio.

Well I gotta' run and get some irrigation pipe fixed.

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Melville Will

06-21-2007 08:57:27

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Crack Saga II in reply to Jerry/MT, 06-20-2007 16:06:59

Hoo Boy,

You guys are amazing. I haven�t heard that kind of crazy talk since my big block Chevy days. I�m going to sit down and pick through these posts just to see if I can get a handle on the math. It is intriguing to have someone set out to juice up a Z129, because looking at my engine as it came apart the block seems so fragile and the head too flimsy to do much with. It�d be a kick to see what develops, though.

Bill

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Jim in OH

06-21-2007 10:29:07

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Re: Crack Saga II in reply to Melville Will, 06-21-2007 08:57:27

Hi Bill.. you are the sensible one.. My Dad bought me a '52 TO30 when I was 9... so it is just a nostalgic thing.. I want to do a few tractor pulls for some seat time for old time sake and the Fergie is very non-competitive box-stock. It is either geared too high for the slow classes or not enough power for the faster classes, so my solution has been to add the Sherman (done.. well, at least sitting on the floor beside it) to get speed choices and then the engine work to get the power up a tad.. most clubs will allow what I call "invisable internal work" and at least 10% over fast idle (fi is 2200) to make about 2400 rpm.. hence the described engine... Fragile indeed! or this thread would have another name! But this was also going to be a custom pressed sleeve installation and adding about 2" of hard block which would have greatly stiffened the lower end... Top end would be nearly stock (maybe a little port matching).. but like I said... losing interest..... Jim

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Matt L

06-23-2007 17:25:00

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Re: Crack Saga II in reply to Jim in OH, 06-21-2007 10:29:07

uh sherman tranmissions can suck third party image

Maybe its just mine third party image

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