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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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Electrolysis For the Home

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Jeff-oh

02-01-2007 08:46:12




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Buried in a lower discussion was a request to explain how electrolysis works.

Basically speaking you are breaking down the water molecules into oxygen and hydrogen. In this process the black oxide is formed on one piece while another sacrificial piece is eaten away, (if it reacts)

To make the process work you need 3 things.
1) A suitable "Non-conductive" container (plastic bucket etc.) I have even made temporary containers out of 2x8's nailed in a square on the ground and lined with black sheet plastic. Anything that will hold water and not conduct electricity will do. (garbage can, cat litter pail etc)

2) A low amp eclectic supply. Most use 2 or 6 amp battery chargers. No plugging into a wall outlet, as you do not want to be electrocuted.

3) An electrolyte. Water by itself is not a very good conductor of electricity, however it easily dissolves molecules that will ionize. (now for the high school chemistry.) An electrolyte is a substance containing free ions that behaves as an electrically conductive medium. Electrolytes are normally formed when a salt is placed into a solvent such as water and the individual atomic components are separated by the force applied upon the solute molecule, in a process called chemical dissociation in which the solution applies force to hold the ions apart. Salts are compounds that are linked by weak ionic bonds, and will separate into charged ions in the presence of a solution containing stronger covalent bonds. Uhh, the salt desolves and breaks up into a positice ion and a negative ion, and thus will conduct electrocity.

The during the process the negative ions (anions) flow to the positive terminal of the electric source (anode) and the positive ions (cations) flow to the negative terminal (Cathode). Through this process you convert the rust to Black oxide which is a more stable form of iron oxide. Goto wikipedia and search onb rust to see the chemical process.

I think I digress too much. To you need a electrolyte. Many people claim, I think based off of Frank in Tennessee’s electrolysis article that you need washing soda, laundry soda or the like. True it will give you a nice electrolyte. However, I use a much cheaper substance. Rock salt. I.e. like for making home made ice cream, or for melting ice off the side walk, or for use in water softeners. All you are looking for is something to get the electric flowing through the water. (Table salt is not an economic solution)

Now to get started, you got your bucket, water with salt desolved, (I use ~ 1 tablespoon/ gallon) and electric supply. I then take the part(s) I want to treat and put them in the water. (use copper wire on small parts (bolts, nuts, washers, etc)). I then connect the positive “Black” clamp on the part/ wires. The parts are now you cathode.

Next, place you annode into the water. Make sure the annode is long enough to stick out of the water and place your Positive “red” clamp on it. A nice piece of stainless steel makes a great annode. If you do not have one handy and piect of scrap metal will do. Be prepared, as the annode will be eaten away druing the process and be slowly destroyed. I have used old lawn mower blades, angle iron, a shovel head etc. Just do not put your battery charger clamp under water as you will destroy it. Out of the water it will be fine. Polarity of you electric is critical. A simple rememberance I use is the Red lead rusts (Red-rust) and the black lead un-rusts (Black-Black oxide)

Make sure the two pieces of metal are not touching and plug in the charger and watch her bubble. The process will take time. 10 to 12 hours. Cycle the parts through the bath. The water will become cruddy looking but it is still fine.

Use a wire brush to clean the annode (red clamp) as needed to keep the amperage up. Often brushing off the part once in a while will help speed the process. One final thing, you cannot over do it. So when you and the parts are ready pull then out rinse them off and dry them and then paint then and on to the next piece.

Good luck.

Sources: wikipedia.org
Paul Nelson’s excellent article in FENA’s Ferguson Furrows #16. Available from Paul for $3.00 US ($3.50USD Canada) See Paul’s posts for his e-mail.

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Bill Brox

02-03-2007 04:47:52




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 Re: Electrolysis For the Home in reply to Jeff-oh, 02-01-2007 08:46:12  
I used this a lot last year. Works wonders, and I used my high pressure washer to get rid of all the old paint, rust and whatever that were sticking to the former rusted part.

And I use what we in Norway call Acid Free Stainless Steel, it is what they use for sea water construction on boats and ships.

And, I can see no parts of the stainless steel go away, it is as polished and shiny as the day I started to use it.
I use a plastic barrel, it is about 50 gallons in it. And I use washing soda, cost me less than USD 5.00 for the entire barrel.

If we used this more to take care of old machinery the industry did not have to make so many new things, and then there would be a lot less pollution. This way we would save the world, and the little chrome that would be let out a little here and a little there would be for nothing compared to what the industry pours out per inhabitant of this globe. That is my opinion.


Bill

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mike a. tenn.

02-01-2007 09:11:17




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 Re: Electrolysis For the Home in reply to Jeff-oh, 02-01-2007 08:46:12  
gees jeff...what high school did you GO to?? i didn't learn all that in H.S. chem. class. oh wait...i didn't take H.S. chemestry...i took wood shop instead...80)

i'm still impressed...tho i didn't really understand it, 'cept for the part about the plastic bucket, scrap steel, and the battery charger. i was wondering tho...if i want to submerge the WHOLE piece i want to clean, can i weld a little steel tab on it to stick out of the water for the battery cable to connect to? then after it's cleaned, grind it off? or won't this work?

-mike

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Jeff-oh

02-01-2007 10:33:37




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 Re: Electrolysis For the Home in reply to mike a. tenn., 02-01-2007 09:11:17  
There is no need to weld on a connection piece. Waste of time.

1) summerge the whole thing. Keep as much of the clip out of the water a practicable. As the electric will flow the path of least resistance and the connection of the clip to the part is a resistance point. As I use a 5 gallon bucket for most pieces I usually do half the flip it around and do the other half. I line up the completed pieces and the to be done pieces on a shelf.

2) Use copper wire and "Twist-tie" it tight on the part then out the the clip. This is how I do nuts and bolts. i.e. I wrap 20 gauge bare copper wire around the bolt threads to get a good contact and then wrap the other end of the wire on the clip.

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Jeff-oh

02-01-2007 10:22:32




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 Re: Electrolysis For the Home in reply to mike a. tenn., 02-01-2007 09:11:17  
There is no need to weld on a connection piece. Waste of time.

1) summerge the whole thing. Keep as much of the clip out of the water a practicable. As the electric will flow the path of least resistance and the connection of the clip to the part is a resistance point. As I use a 5 gallon bucket for most pieces I usually do half the flip it around and do the other half. I line up the completed pieces and the to be done pieces on a shelf.

2) Use copper wire and "Twist-tie" it tight on the part then out the the clip. This is how I do nuts and bolts. i.e. I wrap 20 gauge bare copper wire around the bolt threads to get a good contact and then wrap the other end of the wire on the clip.

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archiesfords

02-01-2007 09:10:55




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 So where do you??Re:Electrolysis For the Home in reply to Jeff-oh, 02-01-2007 08:46:12  
So where do you dump this Toxic Soup when finished??
May I say NEVER use stainless steel or any other alloy that may contain a heavy toxic metal for the anode!!
If it gets to the ground water or goes into a public sewer system and the contamination is traced back to you, it could bring a little jail time.



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John (TR)

02-01-2007 18:18:20




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 Re: So where do you??Re:Electrolysis For the Home in reply to archiesfords, 02-01-2007 09:10:55  
I think we need to be realistic about the quantites of "soup" and heavy metals and caustic clouds. I've had my set up running since August. I've changed water once and all totaled is probably 10 gallons, half of which is still in the bucket. Even using a stainless eletrode there is probably not even enough heavy metal dissolved into the soup to show up in a chemical analysis and even if it does its going to be real low. We aren't talking hundreds or thousands of gallons daily. My gravel driveway to my shop is where I last had my bucket acidentally spill and it can evaporate from there. The water table is around 300 ft and between the drive way and the water is 300 feet of limestone, natures filter. If you are concerned you could even set the bucket out, let the water evaporate and bag the reamining portion and dispose how you see fit. I realize the potential is there just trying to be realistic.
By the way, how many tons of salt does your County apply to the roads everytime it snows? Thats almost all runoff right to the creeks.

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mike a. tenn.

02-01-2007 09:38:39




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 Re: So where do you??Re:Electrolysis For the Home in reply to archiesfords, 02-01-2007 09:10:55  
uh oh guys....looks like the EPA has found us. i don't know about anywhere else, but here in good ol' tennessee we'll probably do with it what we do with everything else....take it out to our hidin' place in the back woods, distille it and drink it!!! 80)

seriously tho arch...if this is true i don't wanna pollute my well. so what do you suggest we use instead that will work?



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archiesfords

02-01-2007 16:10:20




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  Cast iron Re: So where do you??Re:Electrolysis Fo in reply to mike a. tenn., 02-01-2007 09:38:39  
Cast iron or low alloy steel pieces, Old car leaf springs
only carbon in that stuff , no lead no chrome no nickel no cadnium no pollution known as of yet! But Stainless forget it sell it for scrap by some cheap Iron ;))



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Jeff-oh

02-02-2007 07:23:59




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 Danger or not let's see in reply to archiesfords, 02-01-2007 16:10:20  
I can appreciate your concern, I appreciate you bring it up. However, I must assume you are passing on this concern based on what you have read rather than first hand knowledge. (If I am wrong please accept my apologize) I admit I am not an expert in chemistry. I want to get a clear answer to this question so I am perusing it.

Here is what I have gotten so far.

SS 300 series (most common) Has Carbon, Chromium (18%), Nickel, Manganese, Silicon, Phosphorus, Sulfur and Iron.

There is no Lead (Pb) or Cadmium (Cd)

The reason SS are corrosion resistant is that the chromium forms a passivation layer of chromium(III) oxide (Cr2O3) when exposed to oxygen. The layer is impervious to water and air, protecting the metal beneath. Chromium metal and chromium(III) compounds are not usually considered health hazards.

It is the hexavalent chromium (chromium VI) compounds can be toxic if orally ingested or inhaled.

When the water disassociates a hydrogen cation H+ and a Hydroxide ion (OH-). Hydroxide is attracted to the anode.

Now the question is because you are running electric current through the system are we making small quantities of hexavalent chromium? or is only chromium(III) oxide being created. If the latter then SS is probably safe to use. If the former then I will support your position if at dangerous levels.

Just as a sanity check. If you used a 1/16" x 2" x 10" piece of SS (9.62 gm or 1/3 lb) if 1% were to dissolve (this is probably a high figure) then we are talking 0.0016 lbs of chromium or 0.017 grams. If all of that were Cr(VI) then we are talking about 17 milligrams of CR(VI). If dissolved in just over 4 gallons or 16 liters of water, then the concentration would be about 17 mg/16 liters or 1 mg/liter.

World Health Organization recommended maximum allowable concentration in drinking water for chromium (VI) is 0.05 milligrams per liter.

If we assume all the Cr turned into CR(VI) then we are 20 times the recommended level for drinking water. Though I wouldn"t want to drink it anyway. Again this assumes the process creates 100% CR(VI).

Good point it is worth perusing. I"ll let you know what I find out.

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BuckTO30 NC

02-01-2007 12:41:55




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 Re: So where do you??Re:Electrolysis For the Home in reply to mike a. tenn., 02-01-2007 09:38:39  
We have received a lot of info on this site about electrolysis but if you go to the web and type in ELECTROLYSIS There is a whole lot of info there and it mentions using stainless steel.



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BuckTO30 NC

02-01-2007 12:48:59




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 Re: So where do you??Re:Electrolysis For the Home in reply to BuckTO30 NC, 02-01-2007 12:41:55  
I am sorry I gave the wrong info on where to find about electrolysis you should type in "how to remove rust with electrolysis". Sorry about the mistake.



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