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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems...

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slideways

01-28-2007 15:52:27




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Thanks to all that have been helping me.. but i've lost faith here and tried everything it seems. Im going to write a long description about what i've been doing and have tried on the TE20. It will no longer run even on ether and if it does somehow kick over and run a little it stumbles bad.. doesnt take a mixture adjustment and just chokes out and dies.

The tractor has a brand new manifold and gaskets that are installed correctly and tight. It has a rebuilt carb that i thoroughly cleaned and set the float correctly. I've never rebuilt a tractor carb but i think everything is right inside and it did run for awhile. New vertical exhaust. New points/condensor. Newish plugs and universal wires which all have spark.

I installed a sediment bowl from a TO35 which didnt work right with the way it drained in and opened (i think it needed another vent or something).. so it now has just a shut off valve direct to the carb inlet. The "secret" filter is now completely clean. Gas tank has been coated and flows clean. Bowl of carb was taken off and inspected.. clean and clear. All different mixtures have been tried.
Pulled center wire off of distributor and held to ground. Light blue/white spark up until about 1/4" away from ground source. Fresh Optima battery.

The strange thing is that i had the tractor running beautifully for about 15 minutes when i returned it had stalled and would not restart. It ran intermittently with ether fueling it and now doesnt even start consistently with ether sprayed into it.

I know fuel,spark,air makes an engine run.. Its got air.. i checked each plug for spark. The plugs fire but not very consistently.. should be plenty to make it run though. The fuel now flows completely uninterrupted from tank to carb and flows out the bowl like the cow peein on the rock..


Any thoughts? Im completely lost here..

Thanks for the continued help..

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bgiles

02-07-2007 19:19:17




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to slideways, 01-28-2007 15:52:27  
I have a 52 tea20 and it would do almost the same thing. At the time it had an extra fuel filter put in the line just past the glass bowl. I then took off the filter and away it went. To check it i disconected the gas line from the carb to see if the gas was getting through. Now I leave the filter off because I couldn't get the proper one due to no fuel pump. Now with my tea20 if the gas level gets down to about 2inches left in the tank it will just die out and won't go again until I get it up to about 1/2 tank. The tank may not be empty but you may need more in the tank to keep the flow going. I hope this helps. Any questions just email me. Good Luck Bob

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Ed H-OH

01-30-2007 19:00:44




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to slideways, 01-28-2007 15:52:27  
Hello, I've run into the problem I think you are having a couple of times before. I suspect it flooded out a little when you tried to start it. Unleaded fuel puts a coating on the plugs that conducts electricty when they flood like that and if the ignition is a little weak it can't burn it off. It will not start Till you replace or clean the plugs. Wire wheeling them will not get it off, spray them with carb cleaner,then wire wheel them dry. If it starts and runs after, then do somethig to get the spark hotter or you will have to clean the plugs every time it floods a little. The first time it happend to me it took me a week to figure it out.As with leaded gas all you had to do when you flooded it was let it set for a while and it would start after it dried out, this coating does not go away unless it's burnt off or cleaned with solvent. Hope this helps -ed

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Grampa Leon

01-30-2007 14:31:34




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to slideways, 01-28-2007 15:52:27  
Have seen cases of intermitant spark caused by distributor momentarily loosing ground contact with engine block.Also I always suggest 12 volt to 6 volt conversions to wire resister so 12 volts to coil only on start cycle,after starting
system runs on 6 volts.[starter reduces voltage
some what and short bursts of 12 volts o.k.]



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Mike Mohrhauser

01-30-2007 09:15:58




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to slideways, 01-28-2007 15:52:27  
I've had a couple more thoughts: I see you that your tractor has been converted to 12v.It should have a Negative ground. Do you have a resistor and 6v coil or 12v coil? I prefer the 12v coil.It eliminates one more thing that can go wrong. The wire from the ignition switch should be connected to the +Positive terminal on the coil. Are the plug wires copper core or carbon core? I had a set of carbon core wires on my TO-30. They didn't last very long. I replaced them with copper core wires and I've been running the same set of wires for 12 years. I had a coil go bad once. The tractor would start but as it warmed up it would start runnig rough and then die. Replaced the coil and it started and ran like a new one.

Be sure to let us know what you figure out.

Mike M.

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gshadel

01-29-2007 14:00:58




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to slideways, 01-28-2007 15:52:27  
I agree with all the guys talking about checking your ignition. I've seen a million posts about poor running engines, I'll bet more than 1/2 of them were ignition related. Sticking valves is a pretty low probablility, but checking your compression would answer that question pretty fast.

You said - "The plugs fire but not very consistently.. should be plenty to make it run though."

I wouldn't bet on "should be plenty to make it run though". I've seen Continental's with weak spark that just wouldn't run. Need a good blue spark, look no further until you are happy with the spark.

I've heard several guys complain about brand new condensers that were bad, they just don't make'em like they used to. Just 'cus it's new, don't mean it's good. Check your points real good, maybe replace your condenser, check your static timing, distributor runout, and spark like Jerry says.

I think you said you have a 12V converted tractor... seems like the #1 problem on this board, & the N board with 12V conversions are ignition problems due to poor conversions. Don't know if there may be something there.. or not.

Keep us posted!

George

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mike a. tenn.

01-29-2007 14:10:50




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to gshadel, 01-29-2007 14:00:58  
george...very true! i've run across several bad condensers in my lifetime, even years ago before electronic ignitions. also true about bad 12v conversions...like i said, i burned out a bunch of sets of points on my TO-20 til i figured that out. i sure hope slideways can find what's wrong. i just can't believe that it isn't something pretty basic. these engines aren't all that complicated.

-mike

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jmixigo

01-29-2007 07:33:16




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to slideways, 01-28-2007 15:52:27  
Go back to the basics and check EVERTHANG. Don't assume somethin's workin just cause it wus workin "while ago".
These old Continentals are rite simple. Reset the carb to the "baseline" it cranked an run on fer that 15 min.
Intermittant spark on one of these things is often caused by cheap made ignition parts, which is unfortunate since cheap made is about all a feller can find any more. Look CLOSE at the cap an rotor-take yer hands and try to pull that cap apart- cracks here will kill the sparks fore they get to the gas. Tee tiny cracks in a rotor make it worthless too.
HOT sparks at the right time, adequate compression, gas an air in proper proportion, an enough crankin speed. Put these together an it will run.
Now take a break, wait till you want to mess with it, an start over. If you get frustrated, take another break an wait fer the "want to" again.

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ddfitch

01-29-2007 07:19:46




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to slideways, 01-28-2007 15:52:27  
Running real good and then quit, frustating, look for something simple. After it was running good did you disconnect the spark plug wires? If so make sure you have them back in the correct order 1 3 4 2 and the rotation is CCW. I you suspect a stuck valve, I don't, pull the spark plugs one at a time and crank it with your thumb over the spark plug hole. If it blows your thumb off the hole its probably not valves. You could have a gas line thats full of air and not letting gas go down to the carburator. Loosen the nut holding the gas line to the shutoff valve and see if air sputters out. Please repost with what you find.

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phil(va)

01-28-2007 20:36:02




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to slideways, 01-28-2007 15:52:27  
At first I thought maybe when you let it run and it quit while you were in the house and with the key still on maybe it burnt up the points. But if the points are ok, I kinda like Keith Pemberton's thought that maybe it is 180 out of time. This can happen if the distributor is raised and reinstalled 180 out, OR if the wires are reversed. It will often run and pop a little and quit in this circumstance. It should be timed at TDC on the compression stroke. But as you are putting your finger over number one cylinder it is sometimes hard to tell if it is the compression stroke or exhaust. Read your manual on this. Easiest way to change it is to reverse the wires.

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Jerry/MT

01-28-2007 18:38:27




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to slideways, 01-28-2007 15:52:27  

To get a gas engine to run you have to have a good (read a fat, bluish white spark)spark at the right time and the right fuel to air ratio in the cylinder. That's for an engine in reasonable mechanical condition, i.e acceptable compression.

You said you had an intermitent spark. What's the condition of the distributor shaft and bushing? Rotate the distributor with the starter until the points are closed. Push radially(from the side) on the distributor shaft and watch the points. Do they open or move? If they do, pull the distributor and take it to an auto electric shop that rebuilds distributors. They can rebuild it. The allowable radial runnout is 0.002" or there abouts.I had a worn distributor on my TO-30 and it ran but it ran like a three legged dog! Me, the big advocate of CHECKING THE SPARK FIRST, was sure I had poor fuel delivery and even went as far as pulling the carb. Nothing. I checked my spark and it was intermittent and weak. I conducted the test I described above and my points opened about 0.030"! Rebuilt the distributor and it runs like a top. The only other thing to check is the timing. Are your plugs wet with fuel after attempting a start? They should be if your carb is working properly. After that it's compression. You could have had a cam gear come loose and that will mess up the valve timing and you'd see some low compression.
Hope this helps you.

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Fergie fan

01-28-2007 18:12:15




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to slideways, 01-28-2007 15:52:27  
Timing chain probably has jumped a notch, a tractor that old without at least one major rebuild is prime time for a timing chain check. Our old Fergie was hauling corn one day and dying in field next. Chain was stretched and sprockets about worn off after 25 years.



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Jerry/MT

01-28-2007 18:39:53




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to Fergie fan, 01-28-2007 18:12:15  
The continental engines on these machinesave a gear driven cam. No timing chains!



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Mike Mohrhauser

01-28-2007 17:58:34




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to slideways, 01-28-2007 15:52:27  
The points can give a person some real stress. Step #1 With a point file be sure they are clean and flat-no burned spots on them. #2 clean the inside of the inside of the distributer with electric motor spray cleaner.CAUTION- Make sure the ignition switch if off. This stuff is Flamable. Go easy with this stuff and use air to blow it dry. You will need a little lube on the distributer cam but be carful not to get it on any of the parts that make electrical contact.If you don't have a little lube on the points (the non metalic part that rides on the dist. cam) it will soon wear and you will need to reset them. .022" is the proper point gap setting.Do you have the plug wires in the distributer right? It rotates counter clockwise. A common mistake is to install them clockwise.#3 make sure the timing is set correctly.
Many years ago I had a 1958 Plymoth. I had flooded it so bad that I had washed all of the oil off of the cylinder walls. It would not suck any gas into the engine after I had fixed the original problem. My wise old uncle pulled the spark plugs, squirted a little oil in each cylinder and it started right up. I had tried every thing imagineable before he showed me this. Give the ether a throw. If it won't start with gas it isn't going to start.
I have found that 90% of the starting problems I've had with my Fergusons is ignition related.

Good Luck,
Mike M.

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John (TR)

01-28-2007 17:47:19




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to slideways, 01-28-2007 15:52:27  
Where are you located, maybe someone here can have a look with you and spot something being overlooked?



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Maark

01-28-2007 17:04:58




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to slideways, 01-28-2007 15:52:27  
The sediment bowl problem is simple, loosen the glass bowl until it fills, then tighten the bail nut.You have newish plugs? RELPACE them with new ones. Even though they look good, there have been multiple problems related to the fuel we buy today and construction of the plugs. Autolite plugs seem to work better in all models of tractors. Use a hotter plug than is called for.



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woodache

01-28-2007 16:39:11




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 Your symptoms ad up to: Re: End of the Rope.. trie in reply to slideways, 01-28-2007 15:52:27  
Simple: Sticking or none seating INTAKE valve!
One sticky intake will render the engine non functioning These will drive a guys nuts, check compression



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mike a. tenn

01-28-2007 16:20:11




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to slideways, 01-28-2007 15:52:27  
you say you have a new optima battery...is it 12 volt or 6? i believe TO-20's were 6 volt systems. i had trouble buring up points in my TO-20 until i installed a resistor block in between one of the coil wires...i think ignition side. intermittent spark in your plugs may be caused by this so like the other post said...check your points...they may look good but could be burnt. maybe one of the more experienced guys on this forum can tell you more about the 6 volt 12 volt thing???

-mike

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Keith Pemberton

01-28-2007 16:16:19




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to slideways, 01-28-2007 15:52:27  
I was working on my Pastors 2010 JD last year, it also had been runing fine. He had been pushing snow when it just poped and died, I did all the right things and it only run for a little while and die. I left on a mission trip so we took to a local mech. He got it to run, He said it was 180 out of time.No one had messed with the timing. He could not explain it.Its stiil running. You might try it. Good luck

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ebbsspeed

01-28-2007 16:04:53




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to slideways, 01-28-2007 15:52:27  
If you've got intermittent spark like you say I'd double (triple) check the points, make sure you've got a good condenser, and check the distributor cap for cracks or moisture. If it ran good for a while then you know something has failed, so now it's just a matter of finding it. And stop using that ether! If you get too much of that in the machine and it does happen to fire, it's VERY hard on things, especially piston ring lands.

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slideways

01-28-2007 17:26:00




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to ebbsspeed, 01-28-2007 16:04:53  
I actually use Carb cleaner.. not ether.. so its a little easier.

Tractor has had a 12v battery in since i got it a year ago and has been converted over to a 12v coil etc..

I was fearing something internal like a valve. I dont know how to begin timing the thing but it was backfiring out of the carb a couple times sporadically. I thought it could just be too much fuel in popping or the mixture being way out.


The sediment bowl... i would loosen the bottom nut and it would fill up.. but then i dont think it would refill while it ran correct? It would just run out of fuel in the bowl?
If im wrong then it was working correctly..oops.

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Jerry/MT

01-28-2007 19:10:14




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to slideways, 01-28-2007 17:26:00  
Guess i didn't tell you how to time it! get the #1 piston on the compression stroke by pulling all the plugs and holding your thumb on the #1 spark plug hole while you crank the engine over. When you feel the pressure build on your thumb you are on the compression stroke so stop cranking. Look in the timing port under the starter. You should see some numbers. if you don't rotate the engine by hand till you do. If you have a TO-30, crank until you linenup the 7o mark with the notch. Pull the cap off the sdistributor noting where the #1 plug wire is. The rotor should be pointing to the #1 plug wire terminal. Now put the cap back on, turn on the ignition switch, put a paper clip or a bent piece of wire in the #1 spark plug boot, hold the boot with the paperclip in it near a good ground and rotate the distributor back and forth until you hear the plug wire snap. At that point you are statically timed. You'll probably have to do it several time to get it right. When you do, carefully tighten the distributor down without moving it. Put the plugs in and try a start.

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Jerry/MT

01-28-2007 18:55:23




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to slideways, 01-28-2007 17:26:00  
I thought I gave you instructions on how to check the timing. Or go into the archives and look. You have to systematically go through these checks if you wnat to find your problem. You can't be selective on what you want to do if you want to get this tractor running.



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digndurt

01-28-2007 17:41:14




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to slideways, 01-28-2007 17:26:00  
Weak fuel pump? Check timing for sure. Do compression check due to ether use, hope no holes burned in pistons. I have a 36 chevy truck that had an electric fuel pump when I got it. It burned out so I re-built original but something is to worn cam shaft or what ever and run rough on high rpm due to gas shortage. Back on elec pump goes good. Good luck.



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Gerald J.

01-29-2007 11:36:54




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 Re: End of the Rope.. tried everything it seems... in reply to digndurt, 01-28-2007 17:41:14  
All gravity, no fuel pump.

Gerald J.



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