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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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thermostat

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Chris Cash

09-09-2006 18:56:24




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Why do these tractors have a thermostat? I'm chasing an overheating problem on my '48 TE20 when I started woundering if it could be a faulty thermostat. Then it hit me, why is there a thermostat to begin with. Its not like a car where you need the temperature for heat. Esspecially when these tractors are so prone to cracks in th cylinder walls. Could someone shed some light on this issue for me?

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Chris Cash

09-11-2006 09:49:09




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 Re: thermostat in reply to Chris Cash, 09-09-2006 18:56:24  
Thanks all for your thoughts. After I check the thermoststat and install the new radiator and cap i"ll let you know where it stands.



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Chris Cash

09-10-2006 15:38:09




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 Re: thermostat in reply to Chris Cash, 09-09-2006 18:56:24  
I'm not sure of the direction of the thermostat as I wasn't the one to install it. The ford dealership that rebuilt the motor installed it. I will find out when I pull it out. That is a good point that I kinda left out.



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Chris Cash

09-10-2006 15:34:35




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 Re: thermostat in reply to Chris Cash, 09-09-2006 18:56:24  
But there is no lack of power until the tractor is overheated. And if I let the tractor continue to get hot right into the red it will start blowing out the cap even with it running. I shut it down before it gets too far into the red because you can tell a difference in the way the tractor acts at the top of the gauge. I worry about damaging the block.



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Cosmo

09-10-2006 15:18:30




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 Re: thermostat in reply to Chris Cash, 09-09-2006 18:56:24  
I may have missed it in the other replies but are you sure the thermostat is not installed bass ackwards?



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Gerald J.

09-10-2006 19:14:37




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 Re: thermostat in reply to Cosmo, 09-10-2006 15:18:30  
A good thing to check, because if the sensing bulb is on the cold side it won't open. I'd still pull it and check it in water on the kitchen stove to be sure it opens.

Gerald J.



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Chris Cash

09-10-2006 12:07:45




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 Re: thermostat in reply to Chris Cash, 09-09-2006 18:56:24  
I have been fighting with this over heating problem since I have had the engine rebuilt last year. The motor doesn't just automatically over heat. I get on it and crank it up and she purrs like a kitten (so I know its not the timing). I start driving and after about 10-20 minutes it starts getting at the top of the green on the gauge. I installed a gauge when I did the rebuild. I know it reading correctly due to when it says its over heating I can turn the tractor off and it will boil out of the cap. I thought that it could be due to the fan not having a shroud around it. So I installed an electric fan and removed the original. It has really come in handy in cooling down the tractor. I can cut the tractor off and turn the switch back on and just let the fan run and it will have the engine cooled all the way to the bottom of the gauge in about 10 minutes. I know the fan is pulling enough air because you can stick your hand in front of the grill and the hairs on my hand stand up. And I can feel the heat its taking off the radiator from the drivers seat. I pulled the water pump and checked it even though a new one was installed during the rebuild. It was perfect. The shop that rebuilt the motor never told me that the crank pully had a couple of bolts broken off. So they installed it with two bolts which broke. I thought this could have been the problem since that would let the belt slip and not turn the water pump efficiantly. I drilled and ez-outed the bolts and retapped the holes. put everything back together and it still didn't fix the problem. They installed a new thermostat when the motor was rebuilt but I ordered on today and plan to change it out when my new radiator that I ordered day before yesterday gets here. Oh, and I did take the old radiator off when I did the crank pully and washed it out at the car wash with a pressure washer. Its amazing how much came out. But it still didn't help any. The inside of the radiator looks fine through the cap. No fuzzy stuff or anything. And the hoses are good and stiff and not collapsing. I hope this new radiator does the trick. I'm at my whitts end. I took the tractor to a local dealer to see if they could figure it out. After a month and a half they gave up and asked me to come get it. :(

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John (UK)

09-11-2006 07:47:49




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 Re: thermostat in reply to Chris Cash, 09-10-2006 12:07:45  
Don't presume it isn't the timing because it is running ok, it may sound like that but have you checked it. Never take anything as already done or at face value, check it again. Timing should be 6 deg. BTDC with Delco Distributor or TDC with a Lucas distributor.



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Jerry/MT

09-10-2006 14:42:57




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 Re: thermostat in reply to Chris Cash, 09-10-2006 12:07:45  
Chris:
The fact that it boils over when you shut down does not mean it's over heated. hen you shutdown, the engine is still hot and the coolant stops flowing so there is no heat transfer except some conduction/convection on the outside of the block so the coolant absorbs the heat and boils. But the block is not overheated.
You may have a problem with a bad pressure cap that causes you to run toward the top of the green band and you may have the rad overfillled and that's why it overflows. The rad should be filled to the top of the core. The rest of the space in the radiator is for coolant expansion.

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Gerald J.

09-10-2006 15:01:35




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 Re: thermostat in reply to Jerry/MT, 09-10-2006 14:42:57  
A faulty pressure cap won't make the collant run hotter, but it may let the coolant boil at a lower temperature. And a 50/50 water/glycol mix will also boil at a higher temperature than water alone. Water and a 190 degree thermostat will likely boil with a none-pressure cap. All the pieces have to work together to work right.

Putting in water alone north of the Gulf of Mexico can prove to be a bad idea. Frozen blocks tend to be broken blocks. Its hard to get all the water out and harder to have time to do it some cold night.

Gerald J.

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Jerry/MT

09-10-2006 23:09:30




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 Re: thermostat in reply to Gerald J., 09-10-2006 15:01:35  
Respectfully, when a fluid boils it transfers less heat then when it stays a fluid. So the engine can overheat because the coolant can't transfer heat out. That's why the cooling system designers but a pressure cap on.



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Gerald J.

09-11-2006 08:36:48




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 Re: thermostat in reply to Jerry/MT, 09-10-2006 23:09:30  
It boils at a lower temperature with no pressure, but it still takes 550 btu per pound to change water at 212 F to steam at 212 F. It takes only 140 btu per pound to heat water from 72 F to 212 F. Then it takes only 100 btu per pound of steam to raise it to 312 F. And a pound of steam takes up a whole lot more volume than a pound of water and so doesn't cool well. But loss of pressure cap doesn't make the boiling point higher, it makes it lower. And lets the block get hotter. Often the temperature gauge doesn't show block temperature, but something considerably lower when there's not liquid around the probe.

Gerald J.

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Jerry/MT

09-11-2006 10:57:02




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 Re: thermostat in reply to Gerald J., 09-11-2006 08:36:48  
Respectfully, what your point? The purpose of the cooling system is to maintain the engine components at safe operating temperatures. If you can't transfer the heat from the components to the coolant, because the film coeficients are too low due to boiling, the engine parts overheat regardless of what the steam tables say about the enthalpy required to change the temperature of steam. Put another way, if you need to transfer 500 Btu/sec out of the engine to maintain component temperatures and you can only transfer 400 Btu/sec out, the component equilibrium temperaure will increase due to the retention of 100 Btu/sec causing premature wear or failure.
There is an added benefit to a presure cap in that it does allow the coolant to go to higher temperature without boiling and thus reduces the radiator size because of the higher delta T between the coolant and the outside air temperature.

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Jerry/MT

09-10-2006 23:07:56




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 Re: thermostat in reply to Gerald J., 09-10-2006 15:01:35  
Respectfully, when a fluid boils it transfers less heat then when it stays a fluid. So the engine can overheat because the coolant can't transfer heat out. That's why the cooling system designers but a pressure cap on.



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Gerald J.

09-10-2006 12:16:25




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 Re: thermostat in reply to Chris Cash, 09-10-2006 12:07:45  
Check the timing with a timing light. Retarded timing (or sticking weights) will let the exhaust side run hot and it will purr but won't have a lot of power.

Gerald J.



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John (UK)

09-10-2006 06:02:49




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 Re: thermostat in reply to Chris Cash, 09-09-2006 18:56:24  
The favourite reason on here apart from thermostats and hoses etc. is that the radiator is full of crud, it has been sucked in by the fan. wash it out thoroughly with a pressure hose or compressed air from the engine side and make sure that you go into the corners, check that it is clear by holding a flashlight at the engine side and look though from the front. You should keep the radiator clean and clear and check it once a month.

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Willy/ 30-OD

09-10-2006 05:15:16




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 Re: thermostat in reply to Chris Cash, 09-09-2006 18:56:24  
Sounds like I should get one for the wife's to-20. I think they are an in-line ( correct ? ). where is the best place to order one? I have a M_F dealer fairly close and I have the Sparex catalog too. Thanks



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Jerry/MT

09-09-2006 22:09:33




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 Re: thermostat in reply to Chris Cash, 09-09-2006 18:56:24  
Gerald J. Has given you all the reasons why you need a thermostat. What symptoms are leading you to believe that you have an overhating problem?



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Chris Cash

09-16-2006 10:55:31




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 Re: thermostat in reply to Jerry/MT, 09-09-2006 22:09:33  
Well my new radiator came in the other day. I figured while I had it out I would first check the direction of the thermostat to see if it"s pointing in the right direction. And if it was I already had a new one on the way. I looked in my service manual to see where the thermostat is. It showed that it was inside the top radiator hose. I went out to the tractor and looked down the hose. Theres nothing there. So I guess I have been overheating without a thermostat. I am currently building a custom radiator cowling to run two 12" electric fans on my radiator. One will be mounted top back pulling and the other will be mounted bottom front pushing. My new radiator cap should be in next week.

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Gerald J.

09-09-2006 20:51:35




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 Re: thermostat in reply to Chris Cash, 09-09-2006 18:56:24  
Your tractor engine NEEDs that thermostat to get it up to operating temperature. To evaporate the condensate out of the crankcase, to keep fuel from condensing on the cylinder walls and washing the oil off (which leads to rapid ring wear and then to oil thinning and bearing wear), and to improve the combustion efficiency. The hotter the combustion chamber walls, the better the engine efficiency because less heat energy is lost to the cooling system.

If you are having overheat problems, you have a bad water pump (impeller rusted to nothing or spinning on the shaft), a stuck thermostat (and that's easy checked by tossing it in a pan of water on the stove, it should open before the water boils). You might want to reserve that pan for thermostat checking after that. I trust new ones so far that I test them the same way before putting them in my engines. A collapsing suction hose, or a plugged radiator (water passages OR air passages or both), or a block that's filled with crud from setting for decades since it was last flushed.

Heat in the automobile is just a handy side product of getting the engine cooling system up to a proper operating temperature, its not the reason for the thermostat.

Gerald J.

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JustIn Case

09-10-2006 13:24:08




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 Re: thermostat in reply to Gerald J., 09-09-2006 20:51:35  
I have a Ferguson TO-20 and a Case VAC both which are lacking thermostats. It is my eventualy goal to put thermostats in both. The ferguson has 3 point so i use it in the winter to blade snow, I block the radiator and that warms it up "somewhat" but it still needs a thermostat. The question i have for all of you, Do I need to drill a small, say 1/4" hole in the thermostat for some sort of bypass? In the past I've seen thermostats with a hole in them but was not sure of what purpose the hole served, other than letting the air out of the top of the block when filling the cooling system. looking forward to your replies. Jim in Nebraska

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Gerald J.

09-10-2006 14:56:55




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 Re: thermostat in reply to JustIn Case, 09-10-2006 13:24:08  
If the thermostat needs a hole for circulation or air release, it will come with that hole. Otherwise you may have to fill the cooling system as full as it goes, then warm it up to finish the filling. Lots of times the thermostat valve isn't quite air tight anyway.

And to keep a system from boiling, you can need a 50/50 water/antifreeze mix since it boils at a higher temperature than water alone. That's for permanent antifreeze of the glycol type. And a pressure cap raises that boiling point further.

Gerald J.

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