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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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TO-30 Dwell Angle

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Bill -SC

05-15-2006 19:17:53




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Can anyone give me the correct dwell angle for my TO-30? My manual doesn't have that listed.
Many thanks.




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Jim in OH

05-16-2006 05:24:19




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 Re: TO-30 Dwell Angle Repost Corrected in reply to Bill -SC, 05-15-2006 19:17:53  
Dwell is the angle of rotation that the points are closed . All "old fashioned" points/condensor/coil systems that I am aware of, work very closely to the same specification of being closed about 60% of the time. I would expect that the delco system on the Continental to be the same. Since this is a 4 cylinder engine, 90 degrees rotation of the distributor would equal 100% (for each cylinder), then 55-65% would be 50 to 59 degrees. For typical engines, I'd use the lower number on 4 cylinder engines, and the higher on 8 cylinders. I haven't measured the dwell on my tractor (yet) after setting a new set of points, but this is what I'd expect. Jim

Engine..... ...100%.....55%..60%..65%
4-cylinder..... 90..... ..50.....54.....59 degrees
6-cylinder..... 60..... ..33.....36.....39 degrees 8-cylinder..... 45..... ..25.....28.....30 degrees

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Bill - SC

05-16-2006 06:48:22




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 Re: TO-30 Dwell Angle Repost Corrected in reply to Jim in OH, 05-16-2006 05:24:19  
Thanks Jim, that is exactly what I was looking for.



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Jim in OH

05-16-2006 05:15:00




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 Re: TO-30 Dwell Angle in reply to Bill -SC, 05-15-2006 19:17:53  
Dwell is the angle of rotation that the points are open. All "old fashioned" points/condensor/coil systems that I am aware of, work very closely to the same specification of being open about 60% of the time. I would expect that the delco system on the Continental to be the same. Since this is a 4 cylinder engine, 90 degrees rotation of the distributor would equal 100% (for each cylinder), then 55-65% would be 50 to 59 degrees. For typical engines, I'd use the lower number on 4 cylinder engines, and the higher on 8 cylinders. I haven't measured the dwell on my tractor (yet) after setting a new set of points, but this is what I'd expect. Jim

Engine..... ...100%.....55%..60%..65%
4-cylinder..... 90..... ..50.....54.....59 degrees
6-cylinder..... 60..... ..33.....36.....39 degrees 8-cylinder..... 45..... ..25.....28.....30 degrees

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Jim in OH

05-16-2006 05:19:38




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 Correction..... CLOSED not OPEN in reply to Jim in OH, 05-16-2006 05:15:00  
Attention.. 60s moment... Brain malfunction....Dwell is the angle of rotation that the points are CLOSED not open... Everything else should be correct.... Jim



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ANDY KIMBRO

05-15-2006 20:09:47




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 Re: TO-30 Dwell Angle in reply to Bill -SC, 05-15-2006 19:17:53  

THE BIGGER THE DWELL THE SMALLER THE GAP. AT .022 GAP 30 DWELL IS WAY TO HIGH.



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Randyr

05-15-2006 19:45:01




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 Re: TO-30 Dwell Angle in reply to Bill -SC, 05-15-2006 19:17:53  
The only thing I can give you is the point gap, which affects dwell angle, is 0.022". Set gap to that spec and dwell will be right, but they don't state a dwell angle spec.
This is on a Z134 Continental in a 35. I can only surmise that your Cont. Z129 would be the same since they are related engines.



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John (UK)

05-16-2006 08:51:17




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 Re: TO-30 Dwell Angle in reply to Randyr, 05-15-2006 19:45:01  
You are correct in what you say from everything I have read about this too,I checked the Manual for the Standard engines and they don't give it in there either, they mustn't think that it is important enough. I looked up for anything about on here on YT and I found something in 2000 and that said that is was definitely 30 degrees for both the Z120 and Z129



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Jim in OH

05-16-2006 10:30:57




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 Re: TO-30 Dwell Angle in reply to John (UK), 05-16-2006 08:51:17  
30 degrees will probably work (it will run), but your point gap will be too big. If you don't want to believe me, I searched around and found pretty much the same thing at the link below... If someone said 30 degrees, it was because they were reading it on the 8 cylinder scale, and needs to be doubled.... Jim

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John (UK)

05-16-2006 12:59:21




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 Re: TO-30 Dwell Angle in reply to Jim in OH, 05-16-2006 10:30:57  
Why should I not want to believe you Jim? I said that was all I could find. I think we may be giving dwell more importance than it actually is on these engines, its not like they are racing or developing high horsepower, this is probably the reason they don't give credence to it in the Service Manuals too and I am pretty sure that not all the points gaps have been set correctly on all these tractors and if not the dwell won't be right again.

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Dell (WA)

05-16-2006 16:53:21




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 Re: TO-30 Dwell Angle in reply to John (UK), 05-16-2006 12:59:21  
John..... ...as you well know, ignition points gap as measured by "feeler-gages" often times leave an oily film contaminate (from sloppy shadetree mechanic techniques) that burns the points and makes pits and peak deposits that a feelergage will miss-read the clearance.

A flat ignition point file will clean-off the peak deposit so you can make a more accurate air-gap reading with your feeler.

But the fraction of an ohm surface resistance of burned points in 6-volt ignition systems can drastically effect the coil current and reduce the sparkies which leads to missing and other unsatisfactory running complaints.

The dwell-meter on the otherhand, can be used on running engines without contaminating the points and it also ignores the pits and peaks of ignition points material transferance due to nature of electrical arcs when the points open. Condensors are supposed to suppress this arcing, but don't always succeed due to technical problems.

I always adjust for minimum dwell specifications (widest gap spec). This allows for points rubbing block wear, closing down the gap but still keeps the resultant ignition voltage high enough for good reliable ignition as the normal wear and tear of both points gap and sparkplug gap occure.

I agree with Jim, 55-60deg dwell on standard 4-cylinder engines is typical. Its a matter of ignition coil design. Some early dwell meters read in percentage of dwell time. Its a matter of modern terminology. Probably why your Z-120/Z-129/Z-134 engine manuals don't specify ignition dwell (besides being old-fashioned, grin) is 50yrs ago, dwell meters were EXPENSIVE and rare and feeler-gages common. But then torque wrenches were also un-common.

50yrs ago, I was a licensed television station engineer and earned $1.65/hr. I bought my first multimeter for $49.50. (I remember it well, it was expensive) But then gasoline was $0.32/gal..... ..respectfully, Dell

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Jim in OH

05-16-2006 18:59:48




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 Re: TO-30 Dwell Angle in reply to Dell (WA), 05-16-2006 16:53:21  
Hi Dell... very informative post! I made my first dwell meter in the 60s... I was in school at the time and the electrical lab furnished the parts.. I think I still have it somewhere... It read in percent and didn't need different scales for 4, 6, and 8 cylinders. Still baffles me why the industry uses degrees...60% is a good start for anything... I agree with your reason, also, for using the biggest gap (shortest dwell), but the reason that I recommend moving to the other end (longer dwell) for 8 cylinders is to give a little more time to build the field... This time starts at half of a 4 cylinder which doesn't have this issue unless you are running them at very high speed... And another reason (that I am sure you know) for using dwell in resetting old points is that the timing stays where it was... using feeler gages usually can't get old points back where they were.... Jim

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John (UK)

05-16-2006 18:28:30




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 Re: TO-30 Dwell Angle in reply to Dell (WA), 05-16-2006 16:53:21  
This is my original post below and in it I agreed with what was said, all I said that was all I could find on here about it when looking for the dwell duration. I said I had also looked in Standard engine manuals (and that is quite a new version).I don"t think you read it fully.

You are correct in what you say from everything I have read about this too,I checked the Manual for the Standard engines and they don"t give it in there either, they mustn"t think that it is important enough. I looked up for anything about on here on YT and I found something in 2000 and that said that is was definitely 30 degrees for both the Z120 and Z129

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gerard

05-17-2006 15:41:14




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 Re: TO-30 Dwell Angle in reply to John (UK), 05-16-2006 18:28:30  
Unless a distributor has mechanical wear, the correct points gap will automatically give the correct dwell. Clearly, if the points are pitted they should be refaced first. In the last 45 years I've worked on everything from lawnmowers to racecars - and have yet to use the dwell meter in my toolbox. On a twin point V8, point gap is arguably more important than dwell. But this is a tractor forum. The need for dwell is to allow time for the coil to saturate - at the 2,000 rpm our tractors reach I hardly think we need to worry about dwell angles. Points within a couple of thou will be just fine.

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John (UK)

05-17-2006 17:33:22




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 Re: TO-30 Dwell Angle in reply to gerard, 05-17-2006 15:41:14  
Well said Clifford! I know exactly where you are coming from with this. This is what I have been trying to say all week....Just wait for the replies though, I can see them now.



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