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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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Correct trans fluid for TO-20.

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Mose1974

01-15-2006 09:19:53




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What is the correct trans fluid for a TO-20? Would a straight 10 WT work used for hudraulic systems on heavy equipment? I have access to a clear 10 WT oil that is the only reason for the question, if not could someone tell me what to purchase.




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mose1974

01-17-2006 10:08:15




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 Re: Correct trans fluid for TO-20. in reply to Mose1974, 01-15-2006 09:19:53  
Thank you for the information freom everyone it has been very helpful.



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Jim in OH

01-16-2006 09:10:45




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 15W-30, GL-1, oil primer... in reply to Mose1974, 01-15-2006 09:19:53  
First, I don't have time right now to write a lot, I'll get back with something later, but here are the basics...

1- First of all, to sum it up, John(UK) is correct. 15W-30 (or 15W-40, or even others like 20W-50, 10W-40) can be substituted for GL-1... Why? read further...

2-GL-1 (Gear Lube - 1)is straight mineral oil. GL-5 (and others), even though they would better protect the gears from wear, they contain high pressure (HP) additives (sulphur, phosphorus, etc.) that are not compatable with copper containing materials in the machine, particularly when moisture can be present to form acid.

3-Motor oils do not contain these same high pressure additives because the combustion products leaking into the engine have moisture and would form acid if they were allowed. They DO contain additives (e.g. detergents, etc.) but not the HP additives.

4-SAE 90 (or 80) gear lube has about the same viscosity as SAE 30 to SAE 40 motor oil. The two standards are different. Although the measurement of viscosity has been made complex by modern engineering methods, it helps if you understand that the original use of the numbers were nominally the time in seconds to flow a given amount of oil through a specified hole at a given temperature. BUT THE TEMPERATURES WERE DIFFERENT FOR GEAR LUBE AND MOTOR OIL. Gear Lube was tested at 150F and engine oils were tested at 212F. So SAE 90 wt Gearlube, took 90 seconds at 150F and SAE 40 wt motor oil took 40 seconds at 212F. But if you tested SAE 40 motor oil at 150F, you would find that it took about 90 seconds, so therefore it would have been classified SAE 90 by the Gear Lube scale.

5- Multi-weight oils need more explaination, and I'll explain more later. But they do NOT get thicker as they get hotter... they still get thinner, but not as rapidly as single grade oils. SAE 10W-40, SAE 90 GL, SAE 20W-40, all have approximately the same viscosty at 212 F. At temperatures greater than that they will all be thinner. From thickest to thinnest (T>212) 10W-40, 20W-40, SAE 90 GL (not a typo...) So at temperatures less 212 F, the order is reversed, thickest to thinnest (SAE 90 GL,20W-40, 10W-40)

More later, maybe... Jim

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gerard

01-16-2006 10:54:32




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 Re: 15W-30, GL-1, oil primer... in reply to Jim in OH, 01-16-2006 09:10:45  
What has confused people (including me) is the 90wt designation. For those of us used to 90wt, we usually associate that with EP90 gear oil, which is almost as thick as treacle - if compared with engine oil, it"d be abut SAE150.



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Jim in OH

01-16-2006 11:20:08




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 Re: 15W-30, GL-1, oil primer... in reply to gerard, 01-16-2006 10:54:32  
The "EP" rating is (I believe) how it performs under extreme pressure and not directly related to the viscosity... there can be EP90 gear oils that have few additives and would need to be nearly as thick as grease to get an EP90 rating... and there are oils with many additives that get the EP90 rating but are nearly as thin as water... (transmission oil) see example in the link... Lots of EP90 gear lubes are like GL-5 80-90 weight... Jim

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gerard

01-16-2006 12:29:22




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 Re: 15W-30, GL-1, oil primer... in reply to Jim in OH, 01-16-2006 11:20:08  
Interesting link. Lubrication is a whole subject in itself - I leave it to the companies to know best, but the blurb in the link reminded me - polymers added as viscosity improvers are (or were) susceptible to shear in certain conditions - piston oil pumps & ballraces being two examples. Whilst I realise tractor rpms are relatively low, perhaps using multigrade in a transmission that includes piston pump and ballraces is not such a good idea?

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Jim in OH

01-16-2006 12:41:15




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 Re: 15W-30, GL-1, oil primer... in reply to gerard, 01-16-2006 12:29:22  
I have my own reservations, too, not so much from the viscosity breakdown issues since the engine will run much hotter and has the same shear issues (in bearings, piston walls, etc.), but from the detergent standpoint... these newer oilshave additives that are made to scrub the surfaces and then suspend the particles until they are filtered out in the oil filters... The Ferguson trans doesn't have a filter... so the result is that more and more metal, dirt and debri (including absorbed moisture) is suspended and circulated through the metal parts... not a good idea, I think.. just look inside a gear case of a 50 year old Ferguson.. lots of dirt and sludge, but it is on the bottom and the oil still can look pretty good since all of the debri will have settled out... I would at least want to change the oil more often if I used a motor oil (with detergents).. Just my 2 cents.. Jim

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gerard

01-16-2006 12:53:33




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 Re: 15W-30, GL-1, oil primer... in reply to Jim in OH, 01-16-2006 12:41:15  
Thought ballraces etc gave oils a harder time than gear pumps & plain bearings, but agree re detergents. Have always advised against an HD oil in old engines - especially ones with marginal filtration (such as the TE 'rag' filter) for the very reasons you give. One is effectively pumping around a thin grinding paste - the old oils let the gunge drop out and settle in the sump as sludge.



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Jim in OH

01-16-2006 13:24:39




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 Re: 15W-30, GL-1, oil primer... in reply to gerard, 01-16-2006 12:53:33  
Sorry.. your right.. I overlooked your comment on ball races.. (not on purpose :-) Jim



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John (UK)

01-15-2006 10:48:45




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 Re: Correct trans fluid for TO-20. in reply to Mose1974, 01-15-2006 09:19:53  
The original spec. for the oil was GL1 90W it is a straight mineral oil...do not try GL5 or any other GL. There is a more modern oil you can use though and it will probably be more available to you, it is Multi-grade 15W-30 it stays more fluid when cold and is thicker when hot than the original.



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Dennis P in Ohio

01-16-2006 05:51:23




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 Re: Correct trans fluid for TO-20. in reply to John (UK), 01-15-2006 10:48:45  
I went to a dealer and they sold me the usual 80-90 heavy gear oil for my TE 20. I didn"t know one could use the 5w30 you suggest, as it was my understanding that the "shear strength" of the heavy oil is what is required and specified by most manufacturers.
Can you comment or expand on this?
Thank you.



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Paul F B

01-16-2006 06:51:40




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 Re: Correct trans fluid for TO-20. in reply to Dennis P in Ohio, 01-16-2006 05:51:23  
I plan to change the gear oil on my TEA this spring, so I would like to learn more about the 15w-30w oil also. Paul F B



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John (UK)

01-16-2006 06:47:51




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 Re: Correct trans fluid for TO-20. in reply to Dennis P in Ohio, 01-16-2006 05:51:23  
It shouldn't be heavy gear oil in the transmission, gear oil contains additives that will attack the yellow metals in the differential and hydraulic pump. The oil that you require is basically what goes in your engine to simplify it, it should be no thicker than that and with no corrosive additives, The original oil which we now know as GL1 90W originally contained nothing it was a pure straight mineral oil, the oil we have now GL1-90W does contain certain additives (non-corrosive) they tell me that there is no straight mineral oil any longer as all oils are a mixture of additives, maybe only very small amounts in some cases but nevertheless they contain additives. I asked Castrol in UK for a replacement for GL1 as we have tractors all over the world and in some places they just can't get GL1 and in others, if they use GL-1 if it gets really cold in winter they cant use the tractor till it warms up which can be very difficult if you are 20 below and need to get moving snow quick. Castrol came up with 15W-30 Multi-grade which has small amounts of additives but will be thinner when cold and thicker when hot than the original GL-1 type. This 15W-30 oil is something that you would use in your car engine nothing out of the ordinary and this is the type of oil you need for your transmission on your Ferguson, what a lot of people forget is that the hydraulics use the same oil and suppliers only think of gearboxes and rear axles when they supply oil they tend to forget or don't know that the hydraulics are in there and they don't like thick oil.If you ask for hydraulic oil they think of that thin watery stuff that some use. Certainly the oil in there should not be thick or heavy duty or anything containing those oils containing sulphur based additives. Something I heard today from one of regular contributors was that he couldn't get hold of 15W-30 in his area, is this the case all over America, if it is we may have to use the nearest we can get which is probably 15W-40 which I personally thought Castrol may recommend but didn't. The Multi-grade oil on the face of it should be better all round for the hydraulics and transmission.

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Paul F B

01-16-2006 08:53:34




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 Re: Correct trans fluid for TO-20. in reply to John (UK), 01-16-2006 06:47:51  
John; Given that information ( I'm assuming you're saying there are no destructive additives to Castrol oil), wouldn't it be possible to use a weight like 15w-40w in the crankcase as well? Paul F B



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John (UK)

01-16-2006 10:06:38




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 Re: Correct trans fluid for TO-20. in reply to Paul F B, 01-16-2006 08:53:34  
Hi Paul, I cant really see any reason why it shouldn't be used...probably get some oil pressure on some of these Continentals,TEA's too.
There are no additives in Castrol oil that are destructive. We were always given to understand that there maybe something in the Multi-grade oil but they assure us that there isn't, that it is only in gear oils. But I am not saying that you should use only Castrol,(I just happened to ask them that was all) you should use your normal suppliers oil but to that Multi-grade spec. of 15W-40 I would have thought for the USA where temperatures get a lot higher (and lower) than ours a Multi-grade would be a lot better. Hydraulics should perform better when its cold as they will be able to suck it in through the Control Valve more easily.Actually for the UK SAE40 was specified for the engine originally which is heavy..

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Crem

01-17-2006 16:50:24




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 Re: Correct trans fluid for TO-20. in reply to John (UK), 01-16-2006 10:06:38  
I have been using Mystic universal trans-hydraulic fluid in my TO-20 since 1998. It is made by Citgo. I do not know what the weight of it is but it is a lot lighter than the original stuff. I changed to that because of slow hydralic movement in the winter time. The hydraulics do knock more when it gets hot though. You have to remember that the tractor is over 50 years old and the tranny or rear end has never been apart. I have thought of changing to a heavier oil for the summer time but have not done it yet. I have used the tractor for mowing and landscaping and also a bunch of very hard box blading. In the engine I use Mystic JT-8 10-40 wt, which is also a Citgo oil. I get it at the Farm Fleet store. I started using this with the newly rebuilt engine after the first oil change.

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John (UK)

01-18-2006 08:18:04




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 Re: Correct trans fluid for TO-20. in reply to Crem, 01-17-2006 16:50:24  
That is the best time to use this oil, straight after a major overhaul, it would not be a good idea to use it on an old engine as it would wash out all the old deposits and may start burning oil as a result. Old hydraulics do tend to knock a bit under load, it's just because of the type of Pump it is. I would try to check the grade of oil you are using, if it is the correct spec then leave it, if it is a bit under spec then try one a little bit heavier, this may delay a Pump rebuild. The oil you use in the engine may be ok for the back end if it is clean and no sludge in there. It sounds like you do look after your tractor so you may be ok to use it, but do check the back end before you do use it.

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