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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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Bad Running

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Randy R

02-25-2005 18:29:19




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Hi folks. My 1962 MF35 with Z134 Continental gas engine won"t start or run well. It started in the fall when I noticed a misfire on the #4 plug, but smoothed out when i pulled the wire away from it a little. So I bought new plugs, Champion D21"s, non resistor types, specified in the Champ cataloque. It ran horrible on them. The originals were Autolite 386"s resistor types. So I replaced them with NGK A6"s. Found out later they are non resistor types too. It still is hard to start, sputters on starting like it"s running on 1 or 2 cylinders, then comes around, but backfires ocassionally. It has new points, gapped to 0.022", plugs at 0.025", new condensor again to see if that would help, not! and cap, rotor, and wires. There is a wire section spliced into the coil power supply. Is there supposed to be a resistor there? The coil looks original with it"s ceramic exterior, and measures 3.5 ohms resistance. Any thoughts on how to get it running better? Should I go back to the 386 plugs? Thanks!

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Dean in Logan

02-25-2005 21:34:59




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 Re: Bad Running in reply to Randy R, 02-25-2005 18:29:19  
Ever hear of "Sta-bil"? The stuff works.



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Jerry/MT

02-25-2005 21:02:19




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 Re: Bad Running in reply to Randy R, 02-25-2005 18:29:19  
Have you checked the timing and the advance mechaism operation. You might want to check out your distributor. A worn bushing can cause poor running due to erratic point dwell.
Since its a MF 35 it probably has a 12 volt electrical system. If it has a real 12 volt coil, it doesn't need a reistor in the primary lead to the coil. If it has a 6 volt coil, it needs a resistor in the coil primary line to reduce the coil voltage to 4.5-5.0 volts or the coil can burn up. I'm puzzled by what you describe as the "ceramic exterior " on your coil. Your coil should look like a round can usually painted black with two wire connectors and a large hole on the top to take the high tension lead to the top of the distributor. There's nothing "ceramic" looking about it. You say there is a splice in the coil power supply. If you have an ohm meter check the resistance in this wire to make sure the splice is good. Better yet, replace it!

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Randy R

02-26-2005 00:40:44




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 Re: Bad Running in reply to Jerry/MT, 02-25-2005 21:02:19  
How would I know if my coil is a 6 or 12 volt?



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Jerry/MT

02-26-2005 19:32:36




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 Re: Bad Running in reply to Randy R, 02-26-2005 00:40:44  
It is usually printed on the coil but I've never a seen a coil like you're describing. What is your electrical system voltage?



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RandyR

02-27-2005 00:13:48




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 Re: Bad Running in reply to Jerry/MT, 02-26-2005 19:32:36  
It's a 12 volt system. No, I've never seen a coil like this either. It's about the same diameter as other coils but a little shorter.



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Randy R

02-25-2005 23:30:48




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 Re: Bad Running in reply to Jerry/MT, 02-25-2005 21:02:19  
Hi Jerry. The coil is actually grayish-white ceramic and not plastic. I've never seen anything like it. I don't know if it's original or not. I measured the primary side with an ohmmeter and found it to be 3.5 ohms. I've seen talk on this sight about ballast resistors, but I don't know when they need to be used, except when a 6 volt coil is used in a 12 volt system. I know there are 12 volt coils that have only about 1 ohm and some with 3 ohms. Do they need added resistors?

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Jerry/MT

02-26-2005 19:50:00




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 Re: Bad Running in reply to Randy R, 02-25-2005 23:30:48  
Generally speaking, the reistor is required when the 6 V coil is used on a 12 V system to keep the coil from overheating. Most 12 V coils have a built in reistance in them to reduce coil current and associated overheating. Some 12 V ignition systems use a temperature sensitive reistor that provides full 12 volts to the coil at start up but then as the reistor heats up, it increases its reistance and drops the coil current to keep the coil cooler. This later system was used by Chryler vehicles for some years and may still be used for all I know.
I don't claim to have seen everything but I have never seen a coil with a ceramic top as you are describing. Have you check the spark strength by pulling a wire off the plug, sticking a paper clip or small wire in the spark plug lead, and holding it about a 1/4" from a good ground as someone cranks the engine? If you have a fat bluish spark, than I would say that your coil is OK and the primary circuit is OK. If it isn't, you need to do more investigating. Do you have a volt meter? If so, check the voltage from the battery to the coil with the points closed and the key switch on. (Key switch are known to go bad and cause troubles with the ignition.) If you don't have a resistor in the circuit, every junction from the battery terminal, through the key switch to the first coil connection should read battery voltage. If you have a reistor than you should read batttery voltage up to the reistor and then 4.5-5.0 volts downnstream of the resistor. Hope this helps. By the way, don't ignore your distributor and make sure that you have the right timing order also.

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RandyR

02-27-2005 01:27:10




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 Re: Bad Running in reply to Jerry/MT, 02-26-2005 19:50:00  
Concerning the coil, of the ones I've looked up on the net, some have about 1.5 ohms and some are 3.5 ohms, all 12 volt. How is someone supposed to know which to buy? I'm thinking a ballast resistor, or thermistor is the proper word, would be used with a 1.5 ohm coil, and the 3.5 ohm coil wouldn't need a thermistor. Am I right?
The wires are set right for the firing order. Got 13.5 volts to the coil teminal.
Pulled the lead off a misfiring plug and put a jumper on it and held it about 1/4 inch from the plug and got a good blue-snot spark. And the engine ran smoother. Changed plugs since then and it helped for a while. When I checked the timing with a light, it was erratic, so I pulled the cap again and found one spot where the shaft is a little loose, but nowhere else in it's rotation. Wierd. But it did affect the points opening.
Also noticed the glass fuel bowl on the tank outlet is discolored and there is a layer of gray in the bottom. I'll pull it and check the screen. Unfortunately our local auto electric and ignition expert shop don't rebuild distributors, if it needs a new bushing, just starters, alternators, and gennies.
Did a compression test almost 2 years ago and it was good, 145 on 2 cyl, 140, and 135 on the rest. The 135 came up to 140 with a bit of oil shot in the cylinder.

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Jerry/MT

02-27-2005 19:45:19




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 Re: Bad Running in reply to RandyR, 02-27-2005 01:27:10  
Usually a 12 V coil has the resistance built in so I would say the 3.5 ohm coil is what you would use for a straight 12 V system and no additional reisitor would be necessary.
It sounds like your spark is ok by your description of the test results.
Take the cap off the distributor and remove the rotor. Apply radial pressure to the distributor shaft. I believe the radial limit is .002" which is really small. If you feel a lot of motion, your distributor bushing may be worn. There is an outfit in Portland , OR (www.philbingroup.com) that rebuilds old distributors. I had my done a year ago and it cost me $100 + shipping. Made a huge difference because my TO-30 was running like a three legged dog before the rebuild! Since your timing is erratic, that could be the problem. There is a wick underneath the rotor on these distributors and you're supposed to oil them occaisionally. I have a Delco distributor and there is an oil reservoir that needs oil occaisionally also. Did you check the advance when you had the timing light on it? You ought to take a look at that also. I'm puzzled that you got some improvement that subsequently went away. tell me more about that.
Regarding the crud in your sediment bowl, I have some in mine on a regular basis. These old tractors sat in barns for years before someone revived them and they have rust and crud in the fuel tanks that comes out constantly. I put a filter between the sediment bowl and the carburetor just in case. You probably know that there is a screen in the fuel supply elbow at the carb that you should occaisionaly check for crud.
The compression result are those of a new engine.

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Gregg/Ohio

02-25-2005 20:15:36




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 Re: Bad Running in reply to Randy R, 02-25-2005 18:29:19  
Has the Tractor (134 cubic inch engine)sat for a while? What I am getting at is that "fresh gasoline" is important today, as the unleaded fuel we have today loses alot of the things it needs to make your engine run right and this can happen in as little as 6 months of setting. This has driven me nuts also,putting away a classic car running perfect,one season,and then getting it out of storage to find out it runs horrible. Gregg.

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Randy R

02-25-2005 20:40:19




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 Re: Bad Running in reply to Gregg/Ohio, 02-25-2005 20:15:36  
Hi Gregg. Some of the gas was a year old, but I put a few gallons of fresh gas in it in November. Maybe I should replace it all. Thanks.



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Ol Chief

02-26-2005 20:50:26




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 Re: Bad Running in reply to Randy R, 02-25-2005 20:40:19  
If everything seems OK but backfireing is still a problem , check out firing order.I recently loaned a sweet running IH 460 to a friend to help load his trailer.When I went to retrieve my tractor it would barely run and backfired constantly.I wasted a day going over this mess. Last thing I checked was firing order.It seems that one of my friends buddies helping out, does not like me. I finally found four of the six plug wires had been switched.I was supprised that it would run at all.Timed firing order correctly and now purrs like a kitten

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Barry from Stirling

02-28-2005 10:49:28




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 Re: Bad Running in reply to Ol Chief, 02-26-2005 20:50:26  
He switched the plug wires on you????? ???? Some friend!!!!! !!!!! !!!!! !!



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RandyR

02-27-2005 15:59:31




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 Re: Bad Running in reply to Ol Chief, 02-26-2005 20:50:26  
Well here's a development. I checked the firing order and thought it was right at 1,4,3,2. It's been like that the whole time I've owned it. I was sure it was right, but I looked it up and WHOOPS! it's 1,3,4,2. I switched the wires today, but didn't get a chance to run it, short of time. It's a little embarassing, cuz I was sure it was right.
Like Dell says on the Ford N board, they have the same order, and will actually run not too bad with the wires wrong, but no power.
So I'll try it tomorrow.

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RandyR

02-27-2005 23:22:27




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 Re: Bad Running in reply to RandyR, 02-27-2005 15:59:31  
Jerry, I saw the wick under the rotorand have put a few drops of oil on it. Where is the reservoir under the distributor? Is that the little bolt that sits just to the left of the dist on the protrusion from the block?
As for getting an improvement that went away, that was after I installed new plugs, but I think because of #3 and 4 wires being switched, I had a spark on these cylinders so it ran like it did earlier, not great but I thought that was normal for these engines. I thought they were just an old, crude design and ran rather rough. Then the plugs fouled and it was really bad. These old things will actually run with the wires crossed, just not great. But I found the #3 and 4 wires were crossed, so I switched them. I'm looking forward to a test run today. It should make a big difference.

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Jerry/MT

02-28-2005 21:34:53




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 Re: Bad Running in reply to RandyR, 02-27-2005 23:22:27  
I asked about the timing order (or firing order ) in my first note. It must have gone by you. Regarding the oil in the Delco distributor, there is a plug right below the fat part of the distributor. It's kinda' flush with the case and maybe hard to see.



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RandyR

03-01-2005 03:00:39




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 Re: Bad Running in reply to Jerry/MT , 02-28-2005 21:34:53  
About the firing order, I saw it but thought it was right, then found out I and it were wrong. But your note is what made me go looking for the spec. Thanks, I'm glad I found it.
Is this plug on the block or dist? I'll look today.



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Jerry/MT

03-01-2005 19:42:43




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 Re: Bad Running in reply to RandyR, 03-01-2005 03:00:39  
It's on the distributor, but only on the Delco distributor not the Lucas.



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