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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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Active Position Control or Chains.

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Jeff

11-17-2003 08:28:18




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Following the discussions over the last two years I have decided to I need to control my rotory cutter height. Now I am in a debate as to the best method. And would like you opinion.

I use the tractor for bush hogging and drive way grading. I have sway bard but nothing for position control.

My current views. Active position control. (i.e. Zane thang or Fergy Pos.) gives easily adjustable position control. most versitile.

Delimiter chains. Major plus, unloads hydrolic system allowing the chains to obsorb the loads produced by the bouncing of the heavy bush hog on my uneven ground. Thus no wear and tear on the lift system. Although more troublesome to change.

Cost between the two seem to be a non issue.

Any advise?

Jeff

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ZANE

11-24-2003 04:59:44




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 Re: Active Position Control or Chains. in reply to Jeff, 11-17-2003 08:28:18  
I vote for you having a ZANE THANG!

Chains will work but why do it that way when there is a much better way and inexpensive too.

I threw my old stay chains away after I invented the position control device.

See the link below for more information.



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Richie MaGoo

11-23-2003 09:31:57




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 Re: Active Position Control or Chains. in reply to Jeff, 11-17-2003 08:28:18  
Jeff,

I've been grappling with the same problem- as I use my TO-20 to bush-hog 27 hilly acres.

My hydraulics are pretty good- but I fifure: These are old tractors, and even if the hydraulics are good, they are not perfect. It seems to me that any chinks in your hydraulics might negate the benefits of an after-market position control device. (And put alot of stress and wear on the system)

I've tried using chains- which I rigged up myself- but they didn't work that great either- as they still allow for some movement, as they don't hang straight down, but rather at an angle. (and if you change implements, they are a hassle to take on and off- and adjust)

I've come to the conclusion, that putting wheels on the front of the hog is the only solution. How to do this, economically, sturdily and so that they could be adjusted, is yet to be figured out.

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Steve NE

11-20-2003 12:49:50




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 Re: Active Position Control or Chains. in reply to Jeff, 11-17-2003 08:28:18  
I would like a postion control but not for my rotary mower. Mowers are to heavey to hang off a 3pt. Use chains and get the front end on the ground for better control. Also if your 3pt slips the rotary will be stuck on the ground and you will not be able to raise it, because the rotary needs to turn to allow the 3pt to raise. Also feel that you get a more even cut with chains. Don't forget to check for snake!

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john(UK)

11-20-2003 15:50:10




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 Re: Re: Active Position Control or Chains. in reply to Steve NE, 11-20-2003 12:49:50  
Hi Jeff. I dont think you got the idea of what he wants to do with the chains. He wants to carry the mower on the tractor and stop it going too low, so the front would not be firmly on the floor, as for getting more even cut...I dont think thats possible because the mower cant follow the ground because its suspended on the chains so if the front drops the mower will lift and vice versa. I think you got the idea he was using a chain in place of a top link, that would work out like you said then.

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Steve NE

11-21-2003 06:59:01




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 Re: Re: Re: Active Position Control or Chains. in reply to john(UK), 11-20-2003 15:50:10  
Hi John(UK), I did understand that Jeff wanted to use chains to limit how low the mower will go. Sorry that I wasn't clear on what I was trying to tell Jeff. By an even cut I mean that between Lifting the mower up and lowering it back down, I'm not able to always get the mower at the same height, maybe its something I'm doing wrong? I am new to all of this. I do use a chain for the top link to keep the mower flatter when the frontend dips down. I was thinking an old shock would work better in the top link?

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john(UK)

11-21-2003 12:06:25




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Active Position Control or Chains. in reply to Steve NE, 11-21-2003 06:59:01  
Using a chain like you do will allow the mower to follow the ground much better. Using a mower on uneven gound carrying it on the hydraulics will never really work even with a Fergy positioner because you can never get it to follow the ground, the only way to do it is to use wheels or skids allowing the mower to find its own level and and adjusting the height of cut on the wheels or skids. Unless you do this you will never really get the mower to run evenly. Using a chain as a top link is ok providing you dont hit anything with the mower, if you do the mower could flip and come over upside down on the operator, that is why its always best to use a rigid top link to prevent this.I know plenty people use a chain and work quite happily with it BUT if the unexpected happens (an accident) well you can see what may happen. Please dont say this will never happen because I have seen it do just that. All this does get away from the original posting, which was about not enough power to drive the mower in heavy scrub, one writer came up with the simplest solution and that was to only take half a cut which will leave you with plenty of power and save all this messing around, you would only have to do it first time because surely you would never allow it to get in such a state again.

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john(UK)

11-20-2003 15:52:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Active Position Control or Chains. in reply to john(UK), 11-20-2003 15:50:10  
SORREEE! I should have of course said that to Steve NE



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John Herlinger

11-20-2003 11:04:06




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 Re: Active Position Control or Chains. in reply to Jeff, 11-17-2003 08:28:18  
I purchased a Fergy positioner from Australia and it works great! It blends in with the tractor perfectly. Best money I ever spent.



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Fred OH

11-18-2003 07:35:17




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 Re: Active Position Control or Chains. in reply to Jeff, 11-17-2003 08:28:18  
Jeff...You are right on...on the description of two methods. I myself use the chain method and have for years with no problems. And about that bouncing around...you will do so if you are going to make any time while mowing...especially if theres been horses in the field prior to mowing. And in all the years I've only broken one chain and that was probably caused by the chain and boomer that I put across the lower arms to boom it down on the trailer. Another thing maybe you haven't thought about is the fact that without the pump working...theres more horse power available for the mower...as you know...theres no free lunches. Fred OH

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john(UK)

11-17-2003 10:54:52




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 Re: Active Position Control or Chains. in reply to Jeff, 11-17-2003 08:28:18  
You may like to consider the hammering the tractor will take if you use just chains, there is NO shock absorbtion unlike if you use the hydraulics for transport. Chains not really recommeneded for transporting things too much shock loading. I would go for that Fergy positioner and slow down so it doesnt bounce as its not a good thing for any tractor anyway.(Think of it as throwing the Bush Hog up in the air then YOU have to catch it OR just carrying it, which you think is easiest to do?

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Jeff

11-17-2003 13:51:16




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 Re: Re: Active Position Control or Chains. in reply to john(UK), 11-17-2003 10:54:52  
I quess that is the point of the question. Is it better to carry the load with a chain directly holding the load or constant pressure the pump to hold the load?

I would think unloading the pumps would help both seal and pump life.



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nich walton

11-18-2003 00:42:40




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 Re: Re: Re: Active Position Control or Chains. in reply to Jeff, 11-17-2003 13:51:16  
A further point is that there is no give to a hydraulic system, IE you cannot compress a liquid.
Maybe someone more aufait with fergie hydraulics may be able to assure you that the pressure relief valve will blow, should the instantanious load become to much. However in my experiance this would not be the case, the pressure relief valve only protects the pump.



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john(UK)

11-18-2003 10:35:39




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Active Position Control or Chains. in reply to nich walton, 11-18-2003 00:42:40  
The pressure relief valve does blow..well leak actually, under load. If the shock load causes a pressure beyond that that the valve is designed to blow at it will leak. the relief or safety valve built into a system is there to protect it all not just the pump. The check valve was there to take the load off the pump pistons and chambers, but the relief valve was still in the system to assist with any shock or overloads.The control valve on these tractors is on the suction side of the pump so when the lift reaches maximum the control valve is moved to "neutral" so any load is on the control valve and not on the pump itself. The chain used on the mower was just a means of controlling the height of the mower drive on the tractor, if the tractor had been fitted with "position" control like the later tractors then that mower would not have been fitted with a chain, just like the later mowers were after "position" control was available. David Brown/Case tractors had a lift-lock built into the tractor but they told you "not to use it to carry loads over rough ground or travelling at speed if there was a likelyhood of the load bouncing, as it was better to carry the load on the hydraulics, it would act as a shock absorber" their words not mine. Now you are in posession of all the facts you can make your mind up for yourself after all its your tractor.

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David UK

11-18-2003 08:30:30




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Active Position Control or Chains. in reply to nich walton, 11-18-2003 00:42:40  
Ferguson finger bar mower was originally designed to be held on a chain so, in principle it is an ok way to do it but if cost isn't an issue I'd go for the positioner which makes the tractor more versatile. Either way bouncing is bad news and will break something if its violent enough. Don't know if pressure relief will discharge on T20 as there is a check valve between cylinder and pump and I don't know whether pressure relief is on pump or cylinder side of valve. If ground is so rough that bouncing is unavaoidable you could consider incorporating a spring into the chain link to act as a shock absorber. But getting ground sorted out might be a better bet.

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Jeff

11-18-2003 13:17:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Active Position Control or Cha in reply to David UK, 11-18-2003 08:30:30  
Fascinating... answers all.

The bouncing I am talking about is due to normal ground uneveness. Running in 1st or 2nd gear. Not an ultimate load case.

I would perfer the pos. control. However, before I hit the buy button I said to my self....

"Self, if all you are doing is mowing then the mower height is pretty much constant and no need to change much. Thus if you unload the hydro. system then you reduce wear and tear on the system and get a longer hydro. system life. Thus are chains better????"

If I had other implements that need pos. control then this would be an easy answer.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Jeff

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