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Re: Generator Pegs Ammeter!!


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Posted by John T on January 05, 2007 at 10:18:36 from (66.244.90.5):

In Reply to: Generator Pegs Ammeter!! posted by chadd on January 05, 2007 at 09:01:17:

Chadd, the genny will work fine at EITHER polarity provided its Polarized. Many VR's will function at EITHER Pos or Neg ground ALTHOUGH some may not, cant tell sittin here. HOWEVERRRRRRR if the genny was somehow Polarized at opposite polarity from what the battery is and she's started, IT CAN HARM THE VR. Butttttt if it was all wired correct n you correctly got the genny polarized to your tractor battery before start up it should have worked and NOT harmed the VR UNLESS the VR is good for ONLY one Polarity.

Nowwwww I know thats a lot of disclaimers and unknowns but I cant say for sure what happened. One GUESS is the genny really didnt get properly repolarized at your ground (if it was opposite from the repair shops) and when you fired her up the VR lost its smoke n marbles so nowwwwwww is why shes NOT working???????????

When you polarized did you get a small spark????????? IF NOT she wasnt wired or polarized correct and you may have, therefore hurt the VR cuz the genny wasnt at the same polarity as your tractor??????? To be safest when polarizing you may wanna be sure the gennys Field post is dead grounded in case it isnt getting a good ground via the VR as it nornmally should. BOTH the genny and VR need a good ground !!!! sure BOTH are??? Anywho if you dead ground the gennys Field post and temporarily jump/spark a hot ungrounded battery voltage feed (should be ovailable on the VR BAT terminal if shes wired correct) direct to teh gennys ARM post she ought to spark n you know shes polarized. If alls wired correct that SHOULD happen when you flash the VR's BAT and ARM terminals together buttttttt if no spark its NOT polarized cuz maybe a bad ground or not wired correct.

At this point I would polarize n be sure its done right and you get a spark..........then if no charge dead ground the gennys Field post (when running) n see if she charges then ????????? if NOT leave the field grounded n jump the VR's BAT and ARM terminals together n see if she charges then?????? If so the VR's cutout relay must not be closing or teh genny is bad cuz with teh field grounded and the cutout relay by passed you have taken teh VR functiosn out of teh equation n if still no chARGE THEN GENNY IS BAD OR SHES MISWIRED????

I DOUBT THE GERNNY IS BAD MORE LIKELY ITS THE WIRING OR VR

Sure the ammeter is wired correct polarity???

Correct, that peg to dischaerge when shes shut down sounds like the VR's cutout relay is stuck closed !!!!!!!!!!! assuming the ammeetr and all else is wired correct???

This is wayyyyyy more then you need but heres my troubleshootign procedure for non charging, this repeats much of the above but i fear the VR is bad cuz the genny wasnt correctly polarized to the tarctor or else its good for ONLY one ground?????

TROUBLESHOOTING CHARGING SYSTEMS

ARE YOU SURE THE AMMETER IS WIRED CORRECT AND WORKS????? If you turn the lights or ignition on (if coil ignition not a mag) when she’s not running, the ammeter should swing over to the - discharge direction, does yours??? Are BOTH the ammeter terminals reading hot battery voltage?? They MUST !!!!!!! There’s but one wire on the ammeters Supply (from battery/starter) terminal while its other Load terminal wires to the BAT terminal on a Cutout relay or VR PLUS wires to feed loads like lights or ignition, unless where a 4 terminal VR is used where lights n ignition are fed from the LOAD terminal on the VR.

To Polarize the Generator, first temporarily dead ground the Gens Field post to case/frame, then momentarily flash jump a wire from the Cutout Relay or VR's "BAT" terminal over to its GEN (or ARM) terminal and you ought to get a small spark. Same things accomplished by momentarily flash jumping a hot wire (BAT terminal on Cutout Relay or VR or starter post etc) direct to the Gens ARM post to get the spark.

TROUBLESHOOTING A CHARGING PROBLEM IN CLASS A DELCO TYPE SYSTEMS

1) For a good working Gen to get to and charge the battery, it has to have a path usually from the Gens ARM post,,,,,,,,,,to and through the Cutout Relay (between its GEN and BAT terminals, regardless if on a VR or Relay),,,,,,,,,up to the Load (NOT to battery) side of the Ammeter,,,,,,,,,to and through the Ammeter,,,,,,,,,,from BAT side of Ammeter to ungrounded battery terminal, often via the starter lug post. Is yours wired that way or equivalent ??? The ammeter should read hot battery voltage on BOTH terminals, does yours??? Even if an ammeter were stuck (but still continuous) as RPM increases the battery voltage should rise from 12.6 to near 14 volts and/or the lights glow brighter (half that on 6 volt systems). Have you tried that in case the ammeter isn’t working right?????

2) If the above is so, the BAT terminal on the VR or Cutout Relay MUST ALWAYS READ HOT BATTERY VOLTAGE. Does yours??? If not, the Gen cant get to and charge the battery.

3) The Gen to VR (if it has one) wiring is as follows:

BAT on VR to ammeters load (NOT battery) side

ARM (or GEN) on VR to Gens Armature post.

FLD on VR to Gens Field post.

(L) Load (if you have a 4 wire VR) up to BAT supply input terminal on switch to feed loads like lights and ignition.

WIRING ON CUTOUT RELAYS: They wire BAT side to ammeters Load terminal,,,,,,GEN side to gens Armature post. On cutout relay systems, the Gens Field post is wired to the light switch where it gets a dead ground for high charge or a resistive ground for low charge. Therefore, there must be a good connection from the Gens Field post up to the switch PLUS the switch is good and it’s well grounded !!!!!!!!

4. THE GEN AND VR OR CUTOUT RELAY MUST BE WELL GROUNDED AND THE BELT GOOD N TIGHT. If any doubt, run a ground wire from the grounded battery post or clean solid frame member direct to the Gen and see what happens????????????????????????????

NOW, if the Gen and VR are grounded,,,,,all is wired correct,,,,,,,,BAT terminal on VR or Cutout Relay is HOT,,,,,,,,Belt is tight,,,,,,,,,Ammeter is good n continuous n works but she wont charge, have you had the batteries tested lately????? Is there electrolyte above all the plates and no cells have a gray or milky appearance?????? A bad battery may not accept a charge you know!!!!!!!! If the battery checks okay, proceed below to see if its a Gen or VR problem (AFTER you have insured the wiring per the above)

TO DETERMINE IF ITS A GEN OR VR OR CUTOUT RELAY PROBLEM

5. a) VOLTAGE REGULATOR SYSTEM: With the tractor running, temporarily ground the Gens Field post to case. If she charges then but NOT otherwise, the VR may be bad, or a wires missing from VR's Field post to the Field terminal on the VR, or the VR isn’t well grounded.

b) IF IT’S A CUTOUT RELAY SYSTEM and she charges only if you dead ground the Field but NOT otherwise, its either a bad switch or the switch isn’t well grounded or else the wires bad or open from the Gens Field post up to the switch. INSURE THAT GOOD SWITCH GROUND AND WIRING

6. If she still don’t charge, leave the Field grounded and jump a wire across from the VR or Cutout Relays BAT terminal over to its GEN terminal (jump by passes the cutout relay) and see if she charges. If then but not otherwise, a VR's cutout relay isn’t working correct (maybe points burned/carboned) or a Cutout Relays NOT working or not wired correct.

7. With the 2 steps above, you have basically by passed the VR or Cutout relays functions, so if she still don’t charge, you're left with a bad battery or wiring or the Gen itself.

8. MOTOR TEST. You can Motor test the Gen. If its grounded and you remove the belt and apply hot battery voltage direct to its ARM Post and have the Field Post dead grounded to frame, it should motor n run well (Armature n Brushes and Commutator likely okay). Then, if you next remove the Fields ground and it speeds up some, the Fields probably good. If it passes both those tests, it should charge, and if not, it may be a wiring or battery or grounding problem. The hot battery voltage may be taken off the VR's BAT terminal or the starter post or the battery itself for this test.

9. Typical Gen problems may be the brushes are worn down or the hold down spring assemblies are stuck/corroded/dirty and arent pushing the brushes tight down against the commutator. Check those things out. Worse may be bad fields or armature etc. Air and WD 40 etc can clean and free them, the hold downs must be free n snap and hold the brushes DOWN TIGHT and they cant be worn down too low.

SUMMARY: Check the wiring,,,,,the grounds,,,,,,insure BAT on VR or Relay is hot,,,,,,,check battery (maybe load tested and Specific Gravity checked),,,,,,,,,good tight belt,,,,,,,insure ammeter is continuous (BOTH sides HOT),,,,,,see if battery voltage rises above 12.6 (half that for 6 volt system) and/or light glow brighter,,,,,,,,,do the Field and cutout relay VR by pass checks,,,,,,,,insure the Gens brushes arent worn down and the hold down springs are free n clean and push the brushes down tight,,,,,,,,,,,check the connections,,,,,,,,,try the Gen Motor Test to see if its good.

You may just have a bad battery or bad ground or connection if the Gen and VR or relay are okay.

Good Luck n God Bless, let us all know.

John T Nordhoff in Indiana, retired electrical engineer who usually lurks over on the Mother Deere pages instead of over here on the "dark side" lol



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