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electrician question.....

A

Anonymous-0

Well-known Member
To prove that it's tractor/tool related:

I don't want to afford a oxy/axcetyline set for now and then use.

Wire feed welders are outrageous here (thought I found a cheap one but it was just an add on for a major machine).
Saw one for about a hundred bucks at Northern Tool (120 volt).

House current is 230 volt 50 hz here with 3 wires 40 amp(2 and a ground).

When you measure voltage, you get 230 volts when you touch the meter to the two live wires. Touch the ground and either of the live wires and you get 115 volts.
Could I wire a plug using the ground and one live wire and just run a seperate ground to use the the Norther Tool welder?

Dave
 
You wont get much welder for 100 bucks.Saw a 100 amp Lincoln welder made in Poland.A Lincoln 225 amp welder would work ok on your 40 amp line.Check Lincolns web site.I have used 100 amp welders but wouldnt buy one.
 

I've got a stick welder that serves me OK for normal tinkering. Just not real good (at all) with thin stuff. Thought a wire feed would be my ticket for some thin stuff I on a trailer I need to patch ur.

Dave
 
(quoted from post at 02:48:13 09/04/10) You wont get much welder for 100 bucks.Saw a 100 amp Lincoln welder made in Poland.A Lincoln 225 amp welder would work ok on your 40 amp line.Check Lincolns web site.I have used 100 amp welders but wouldnt buy one.
Click to expand...

That wasn't my question but I'll sleep better now that I have your opinion.
 
Cheap wire welder will drive you nuts.Flux core wire is costly and leaves a residue that will attack paint job.You need a welder that will use gas CO2 or argon mix.100 buck welder wont have gas equipment.Better talk with an auto body man.I used to make nice welds on new exhaust tubing with a 1930s welder and stainless rod.Try 6013 or 7014 rod at low current.
 
You'd better ask that question of a German electrician. I always assumed that european 230V power had one hot and one cold leg, just like 120V in the US. But I seriously doubt you can pull 20 amps from one leg and ground.
 
I don't think you need a second ground if you already are using 1 hot and one ground. Just make sure they are the same size wires. As IA GARY said, Welder needs to be 50 hz compatible. What do you mean by 3 wire 40 amp? house breakers are 40 amp? you'd have to make sure the welder would only pull 40 amp at 115volts.
 
(quoted from post at 03:16:40 09/04/10) Cheap wire welder will drive you nuts.Flux core wire is costly and leaves a residue that will attack paint job.You need a welder that will use gas CO2 or argon mix.100 buck welder wont have gas equipment.Better talk with an auto body man.I used to make nice welds on new exhaust tubing with a 1930s welder and stainless rod.Try 6013 or 7014 rod at low current.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

Dave
 
If I understand your question...sounds like you have an existing 230V receptacle and you want to determine if you can branch off of this receptacle and feed a new 120V receptacle for your new welder.....is this the situation?
 
(quoted from post at 04:26:45 09/04/10) If I understand your question...sounds like you have an existing 230V receptacle and you want to determine if you can branch off of this receptacle and feed a new 120V receptacle for your new welder.....is this the situation?
Click to expand...
Just replace it with an American style receptical and only use 2 wires (live and ground) and use 110/120 volt stuff.

Dave
 
NO

the 50hertz won't make a difference
using the ground for one side of the circuit will hurt you sooner or later, probably sooner.
ground is to be used as an equipment ground in case a wire shorts out to the case or other parts that you will contact.
power is on the two wires that carry 230vac
either up the budget to buy a welder that can operate on 115/230vac, or
find a carbon arc torch for your welder or
pay somebody for the few times you need to have it done
I have seen sheet metal welded with a stick welder like you have. it was done by a pipefitter down in Athens county who did not like wire feed welders and didn't want to gas weld.
good luck
Ron
 
(quoted from post at 04:32:41 09/04/10) NO

the 50hertz won't make a difference
using the ground for one side of the circuit will hurt you sooner or later, probably sooner.
ground is to be used as an equipment ground in case a wire shorts out to the case or other parts that you will contact.
power is on the two wires that carry 230vac
either up the budget to buy a welder that can operate on 115/230vac, or
find a carbon arc torch for your welder or
pay somebody for the few times you need to have it done
I have seen sheet metal welded with a stick welder like you have. it was done by a pipefitter down in Athens county who did not like wire feed welders and didn't want to gas weld.
good luck
Ron
Click to expand...

guess you're right.....

Where in Athens County (OH I guess)?
 
Lathrop, old coal company town off of 550
next bigger is Sharpsburg
next bigger is Amesville
lived there from 94-98
John died in 2004

Ron
 
I would tend to think that the frequency would be a problem but I don't know for sure.
I don't see a problem with using one leg in the receptacle and the ground given that this is how you'd be using it anyhow... with 2 legs and the ground. Don't know how the neutral is setup there but here they're bonded anyway...

Still think you'd be better off to buy something local for 50 Hz tho.

Rod
 
If this is Canada, Im unfamiliar with their NEC or counterpart but if its like the US the answer is a simple NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

YOU CAN NOT USE THE SAFETY EQUIPMENT GROUND AS A CURRENT CARRYING NEUTRAL.

The Neutral is a GrounDED conductor
The safety equipment ground = GroundING conductor

The sole purpose of the safety equipment GroundING conductor is to provide a dedicated low resistance return path for FAULT CURRENTS ONLY, Its is NOT to be used as the normal return current carrying conductor, thats what the Neutral is i.e. it carries current and happens to be grounded i.e. its a GrounDED conductor

If you want to run a circuit and wire an outlet suitable for BOTH 120 and 240 VAC YOU NEED 4 (not 3) CONDUCTORS,,,,,,2 Hots, 1 Neutral (GrounDED conductor), 1 Safety Equipment Ground (GroundING conductor)

DO NOT USE SAFETY EQUIPMENT GROUNDS AS A NORMAL RETURN PATH CURRENT CARRYING CONDUCTOR USE THEM FOR CARRYING FAULT CURRENT ONLYYYYYYYYY

John T Long retired EE
 
Dave. Wondering if your serious or just asking questions for conversation lol.#1. Why not just part with a few bucks and get a generator from H.F, along with a wire feed welder,that way the unit could be portable fo solve problems with the tractor/haying mach,etc.? Wouldn"t need to do any wiring at all. #2. You could use your people skills and have some one from the base wire the welder in for you. Either way it"s just a simple matter to ask a local electrician for
little help(using your people skills)to solve your small problem. LOL. Good information here on this site ,if you are sincere. LOU
 
John T, NO not Canada but Germany and the 50 Her?? is different than the 60 Her?? here in the states.
 
(quoted from post at 05:11:10 09/04/10) Lathrop, old coal company town off of 550
next bigger is Sharpsburg
next bigger is Amesville
lived there from 94-98
John died in 2004

Ron
Click to expand...

I come from frost, about 15 miles from there. Left in 84 though.


Dave
 
(quoted from post at 05:46:01 09/04/10) Dave. Wondering if your serious or just asking questions for conversation lol.#1. Why not just part with a few bucks and get a generator from H.F, along with a wire feed welder,that way the unit could be portable fo solve problems with the tractor/haying mach,etc.? Wouldn"t need to do any wiring at all. #2. You could use your people skills and have some one from the base wire the welder in for you. Either way it"s just a simple matter to ask a local electrician for
little help(using your people skills)to solve your small problem. LOL. Good information here on this site ,if you are sincere. LOU
Click to expand...

course I'm serious Lou......... Ask the question over here and I get just a yes or no answer. Ask on here and I get somewhat of an explanation that I can swallow better than just a no you can't.

Glad you noticed that I's gots people skills though..............

Dave
 
Dave, If I were you I would find someone that has a 115v welder and use it. I think you will find it is a toy. I have both wire and stick welders. Both are 230 v. You wouldn't have any problems powering them. I wouldn't have anything but a stick welder for welding old rusty metal. It is about 5 x cheaper to operate too and you can get a hotter weld. Go find you a good used brand name stick welder. I like my lincolin. George
 
for lightweight repair work on trailer, if it isn't structural, how about the cheap spot welder that Harbor Freight has?
 
I have read quite a few of these electrical problem postings over the past few years.


Answer me this....

Why are so many people afraid to part with a bucks to pay an electrician but

are willing to pay much more to a mortician when things go wrong?

It doesn"t make sense to me.
 
(quoted from post at 06:30:10 09/04/10) Dave, If I were you I would find someone that has a 115v welder and use it. I think you will find it is a toy. I have both wire and stick welders. Both are 230 v. You wouldn't have any problems powering them. I wouldn't have anything but a stick welder for welding old rusty metal. It is about 5 x cheaper to operate too and you can get a hotter weld. Go find you a good used brand name stick welder. I like my lincolin. George
Click to expand...
The welder isn't so important. Should have asked the question in general, but would have to ask again if I decided to try the welder route. Every now and then, 115 volt power tools pop up as soldiers leave or buy them at the PX and realize they can't use them at their German house. A welder would be the most demanding I would ever use, but nothing is worth starting a fire over. I may order that little portable generator HF has though in order to take advantage of a couple couldn't afford to pass up deals on 115 volt CF light bulbs and some flourescent fixtures to use at a couple off the grid stalls. As far as the spot welder, I been looking at the pictures like a monkey studying a math problem trying to figure out how to get it into some of the corners.

Dave
 
using ground for return is ok in a mgn system but not a delta.

your measurements seem to say its a multi grounded nuetral system, so the answer could be yes...

but there are deltas, and wyes out there and dont know what the europeans have up their sleeves as they tend to go with cheaper and not safer, at least in the old days when those systems were designed.

I dont think I would rely on an american answer till I talked with someone who knows for sure what kind of power system you have in Germany.
 
Dave
You’re bucking one of the phenomenons of the English language. When is ground ground and when is it neutral? The two terms are used so universally the true meaning has become lost.
Ground is ground the world around except when used in electrics and electronics.
John T. explains the difference but to go into a breaker box and figure it out can be a challenge since usually they are connected together. And to make matters worse older systems DID NOT use a safety ground.
I'm only going to give you this advice. If your system (other outlets and fixtures) are wired with three wires for a 120v, two wire, outlet the 240v circuit you have only has three wires then conclude the third wire is probably the safety ground not meant to act as a neutral.
Be safe rather than sorry.
 
I'll second that.I bought a $200.oo 110v mig welder used it for maybe 2 hours and junked it.What a piece of crap,you couldn't weld worth a shut with it on anything that had a little rust on it.I know your supose to clean it all first ,but sometimes it ain't practical.

as far as your ? goes in Canada we do that all the time(steel 115v off of 220 and feed another ground to it to act as neutral)wether you can in Germany I don't know.If it's leagal for you to do your own wiring I would ask a local Electrician,unless he's like my uncle who hates it that we can do our own.He is an electrician and would like nothing better than to make it so you can't change your own light bulb.
 
Dave, German electricity is another animal. If I were you I would be looking for a 2:1 step down transformer and make your own 115 vac. Perhaps use a 230 v electric motor and have it power up a 115 v generator.

My father told me years ago, in the US, farmers would run a power leg and drive a metal rod in the ground and power up a 115 v pump. Running the current through the ground may cause the worms to come out and the thought of doing that would scare me.

To my understanding, gas is expensive in Germany and to operate a honda generator it would cost you a pant load.

There has to be a redneck way to safely reduce your 230v to 115v.

George
 
The way I read his post... he has L1 with 115V. He has L2 with 115 V and he has some sort of neutral or ground. Meaning that there is no safety ground, period.
How is he going to make his system inherently more unsafe than it is ~presently~ by using L1 only and the neutral while L2 remains unused?
I know with severe unbalanced loads there can be problems... but again, how does this differ from how it is now?
What is he going to gain by using L1 and L2 to feed a step down transmormer and still have no safety ground?

Rod
 
Rod, Have you heard of an isolation transformer? They don't need a ground. 50 years ago TV's in the US used the metal frame as neutral. If the power cord was reversed you would be touching the 115v. TV repairmen used a variable output isolation transformer. I have one! With an isolation transformer, there is no ground. You could touch any wire and not get shocked, just don't touch both at the same time.
George
 
Yes, you're correct, they are indeed BOTH (Neutral Buss and Equipment Ground Buss) bonded together butttttttttt at the Main Service Entrance ONLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY (For good engineering reasons). Neutral and Ground indeed have different meanings in the electrical trade and are understood there but its lay persons that want to mix n match and mis use them. Its tough here in a paragraph to explain the differences and why they are NOT the same but hey I try my best. As an Engineer and Attorney I enjoy electrical and legal questions on here but again complex issues such as those just cant be answered in a paragraph what may take books to explian.

Fun discussion take care now

John T
 
(quoted from post at 13:02:50 09/04/10)

as far as your ? goes in Canada we do that all the time(steel 115v off of 220 and feed another ground to it to act as neutral)If it's leagal for you to do your own wiring I would ask a local Electrician,unless he's like my uncle who hates it that we can do our own.
He is an electrician and would like nothing better than to make it so you can't change your own light bulb.
Click to expand...

Just how exactly do you justify your wiring advice? Unless you have a clue, shut up before you kill somebody or burn a building down.
 
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