Live PTO???

Hey folks,
Am I understanding live PTO correctly? My little tractor's PTO only turns when the clutch is out (you are either moving or in neutral). So, If running a drum mower and have to go around obstacles etc, not very practical. Would Live PTO solve that problem? Asking because I found a tractor exactly like mine except 6 inches longer and a 4cyl (12 more HP) but has the same PTO. I need more HP and the 36 is enough, but do I need to just get the next model and forget about this model? I really hate to get rid of my little tractor (it just fits everywhere), but could see getting the same series in a bigger stronger form. The link is what I found. In German, but you can see the pics. Also, this tractor is getting water in the oil but running fine, think it's just as simple as a head gasket?

Thanks, Dave

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260653384091&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

I'm not sure I understand what your quesion is. Over the years, different companies have called PTO setups by various names. Main thing is, you want a PTO that keeps running, regardless of what your wheel drive is doing. So, you want something called "continuous", "independent", "live", etc.
Some use hydraulic clutch packs and some use two-stage engine clutches.

As far as coolant in the oil? Could be many things inclucing a sleeve-leak if it's a wet-sleeve engine.

Live pto(dual stage clutch) or ind pto(separate clutch) which are a little different are both a lot nicer to use for pto jobs than trans. driven pto. So to answer your question YES.

This is a little off the subject, but I find a non-live PTO very handy for somethings. A non-live PTO with a bush hog is real handy when you hit a rock because everything stops NOW. Same with a haybine. With a baler it's not so great, but there are places a non-live PTO comes in handy. A 2 stage clutch is better than the ones where you have to blindly grab for an out of the way lever to disengage the PTO while also clutching. You can do a lot of damage in a few seconds.

You kind of lost me with the "stop" thing. If your tractor is in gear and moving, with the PTO on, why would it stop when you hit a rock???

I've got one tractor with a non-live PTO that has a brush-hog on it, and I absolutley hate it. Ford 641 with a 5 foot cutter. Cutter will not stop if it hits a rock unless - either the mower slip-clutch slips . . . OR . . . I push in the clutch pedal. With a live PTO, via a two-stage clutch - it's no different. If I hit a rock, my first instinct is to jam down hard on the clutch pedal - and the PTO stops.

Now, I can see where things are different with an independent PTO that does not work via a two-stage engine clutch - but that is just one variation and not the rule for live power.

A decent mower is going to have a slip-clutch or a shear-bolt to protect it from jams, so it should be a non-issue. Most of my mowing, here in NY and in MI, has a lot of stop, go, three-point turns, etc. That kind of mowing is murder with a non-live PTO hooked to a mower. Constantly staring and stopping whenever I touch the clutch pedal.

There are times I prefer a 2-stage pto over an independent one, but I can't think of a time a non-live pto is better???? Don't quite follow you there, the problem with the non-live pto is that it _doesn't_ stop when you push in the clutch while bush-hogging!

For the original question, a live 2-stage or independent pto is a better thing, one can get by without if you have enough hp. Sounds like you are used to non-live pto, so you understand the problems. It's just less fun, more work.

Water in oil, can be several things, some diesels are prone to 'cavitation' where the sleeve or walls develop pinholes & are not easy to fix. The harmonics of the engine and the acid in the coolant work together to eat away bits of metal....

--->Paul

Being raised with Oliver tractors it is just a natural reaction when having any type of problem that needs to have everything stop to push the clutch with my left foot and push the power take off lever back with my right hand in one motion.

Baler, mower, corn picker, combine, rotary cutter.

Having a non live power take off stop everything would be like dropping a bolt in the transmission gears. That is why they make over run clutches to save the gears.

Started using a live power take off Oliver on the baler when I was 10 years old and at 72 years old and using both live and non live power take off tractors over the many years and still you can make them both do the job if you learn how to run them. The non power tke off tractors you learn to pop the gear shift out instantly when a problem starts to happen

Isn't that what shear pins are for? On an older tractor if EVERYTHING stops, you're gonna get thrown into the steering wheel.

I've been toying with the thought of using a Farmall C on a bush hog. It has the pto that stops with the clutch pushed in. I would be using it in a hilly pasture with some washouts and badger holes. The problem is without an overrun clutch, if I see a hole or washout and push the clutch in, the bush hog blades will be still turning the input shaft on the transmission thru the pto connection and keeps the tractor going forward. I wouldn't want to explain that accident to the wife. Been getting stuck and rolling the ATV too much!
LOL

With an overrun clutch, if I want to stop or slow down, I would to have to shift to nuetral and let the clutch out.

Live PTO would be the best.

If you're addressing my post what I mean by stop is that if I'm bush hogging and run onto and unseen rock or stump I push the clutch in the tractor and hog stop. The slip clutch is fine, but it's even easier to to stop and raise the hog or put the PTO out of gear and get by it. If I'm mowing and something starts banging and clanging I push in the clutch and it stops NOW. This is an 800 Ford or one of my Case VACs. I've darn near burnt out the slip clutch on my hog (an ancient very heavy duty A/C with built in over running clutch) on the DB 990. The 2 stage clutch has to be hard down against the stop and that's a long way when you're in a hurry.

I don't expect everyone to agree, but it works for me.

Does that tractor have a so called Agriomatic? This is an extra clutch that provides you with live PTO. (It is usually a telescoping lever approx. 4 inches to the left of the gear shift lever and moves 45 degrees from vertical towards the seat (clutch release) and then down to horizontal (shift from low range to high range). This is a very ingenious attachment. We had two D430's so equipped. Google Agriomatic. HTH, Hendrik

(quoted from post at 14:02:36 08/25/10) Does that tractor have a so called Agriomatic? This is an extra clutch that provides you with live PTO. (It is usually a telescoping lever approx. 4 inches to the left of the gear shift lever and moves 45 degrees from vertical towards the seat (clutch release) and then down to horizontal (shift from low range to high range). This is a very ingenious attachment. We had two D430's so equipped. Google Agriomatic. HTH, Hendrik

Click to expand...

Yes Hendrik, it does. Guess I need to figure out how to use it because the tractor I like is a D439. I like the D series better than the next newer models. The agriomatik will let you shift in and out of gear without using the clutch pedal?

Thanks, Dave

Just to be techincal, what you are describing is an 'independent pto', which is a step beyond a 'live pto'.

Live pto you need to stop the tractor from moving to engage the pto - they have 2 seperate clutches, but use the same clutch pedal to engauge/disengauge.

An independent pto has it's own seperate clutch lever besides the foot clutch pedal, so with independent you can do anything you want with the pto anytime, no matter what else you are doing with the trqactor gears & pedal clutch.

Live is very handy, most of the time independent is even more handy, tho once in a while, like digging post holes, I find live a bit easier to use than independent.

Transmission drive, or non-live, pto just isn't so good. It'll get by, but not good.

--->Paul

To be even more "technical", there is no set rule as to the meaning of "live" or "independent" or "continuous" PTO.

If you look through the early patents for dual-clutch and similar PTOs, one being from Henry "Harry" Ferguson, they call many PTO setups "independent", "continuous", etc. Many with dual-clutches in one stack. The patent descriptions claiming it enabled the PTO to work "independent" of the wheel drive in many cases.

Companies that make tractors call things whatever they want, within reason. To many, "live" and "independent" can mean the same thing. You can throw "continuous" into the works also.

E.F. Stumpf patent in March 1942 called it "continuous."

C.E. Gifford patent (for Huber) in June 1942 called it "independent."

Lloyd Andries for Automatic Instrument Co., patent filed June 29, 1944. Dual clutch assembly allows operating two driveshafts "independently from each other with one drive input."

C.A. Hubert patent for International Harvester in Aug, 1959 called it "independent power take-off mechanism."

Henry "Harry" Ferguson and a few other guys, in 1956, filed a patent for a PTO drive totally separated from the engine clutch. Note they did NOT call it "independent." They called it the "continually running power take-off."

The wording of live, independent, etc. may sometimes be confusing, but an Agriomatic equipped Neuss built IH tractor is "technically" characterized by:
- the two clutches are in series, not parallel.
- you disengage flywheel clutch (foot pedal): transmission stops AND PTO stops.
- you disengage Agriomatic clutch (hand lever): transmission stops AND PTO does not stop.
A peculiar aspect of Agriomatic is that it only provides for live PTO in low range of the transmission. The PTO can be used in high range of the transmission but is simply transmission driven. For most farm uses this is rarely a limitation.
The clutch of the Agriomatic is a wet multi disc and engages very smoothly. Easy to inch the tractor forward. Very robust clutch; IH even claimed it may be used as a temporary speed reducer by letting that clutch slip. Try that with a standard dry flywheel clutch!
Forgot to mention that, besides the two D430's that we had, we still have a 453 which is also equipped with Agriomatic. Lovely tractor with lots of power and a 3 cylinder direct injection ( no glow plugs!) engine. Its smaller brother is the 423 (very popular tractor, a dime a dozen) but has an indirect injection engine, similar to the older D-series.
Stay away from a D440. Blower/turbo isues!

... and, yes, you can shift in and out of gear by using the Agriomatic clutch while the PTO keeps going if engaged.

Hendrik,
Do you speak German? Or do you have manuals in English for those tractors? The Neuss website doesn't show agriomatic for the 453 (they call it "leichtschaltgetriebe" (easy shifting gearbox?). I honestly thought that it (agriomatic) was only a fancy way of saying you had hi and lo range. If I could get schooled on how to use it, I may not have to replace my tractor (just get a smaller mower).

Dave