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Dream cabin in the woods!

J

JDemaris

Well-known Member
A few years ago, mid-winter I had a chance to buy a "big" 33 acre parcel of woods for $16,000. Too remote to be able to go see it at the time. Held in the estate of some New York City heirs - none of which had ever actually seen the land.

I call it "big" because much is so steep, it only surveyed at 33 acres and is probably actually closer to 40 acres of land surface.

The story was that the family had an "old log cabin" on it somewhere, but no trees of any size anymore since it was heavily logged.

Before I bought, I looked at some aerial photos that showed otherwise, and I bought it.

Yesterday, for the first time we hiked some of it. Me, wife, 6 year old boy, and dog.

Well we found the "dream cabin." Also, found it's fully wooded with many huge hardwoods. Probably 90% red oak, white ash, beech, and hard maple - and the rest is large hemlock. If logged, it must have been 40-50 years ago.

Nice cabin. Guess they "don't build them like they used to."

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Swell Pictures J de. With your dozer, you could have a LOT of GREAT LUMBER available for your projects. Boy looks like he is having the time of his life (hide and Go Seek) inside of whats left of ths cabin. Thanks for posting all the great pictures. warmest reguards. LOU
 
Well shucks. All that needs is a little paint, some weather stripping and maybe patch a hole or two in the roof. Don't worry too much about that wall that is leaning. That's just from where the foundation has settled a little. Seriously though, is there anyway to get equipment there without building a road across someone elses place?
 
I have 40 ac of timber. When I bought it 15 years ago I had it select cut--took only the trees over 14 inches in diameter paid 1/3 of the purchase price and still have a nice forest.
 
(quoted from post at 09:54:37 04/12/10)I had it select cut--took only the trees over 14 inches in diameter
Click to expand...

Terrible terrible forestry practice. Known as a diameter limit cut, it removes all of the biggest and best trees. Leaves you with the small, suppressed, unhealthy, poor genetic stock, etc. If you plan on having any forest management done find a good reputable forester to write a management plan based on your desired future conditions, and manage the timber accordingly.

Just my 2cents worth as a forester who hates seeing landowners get taken advantage of by loggers and sawmills.
 
Well with a nice bunch of standing timber like that, you could always buy a bandsaw mill and cut enough lumber to build you a cabin and some extra lumber to sell. That sounds like a nice deal anyway, they aren"t making much land any more.
 
I just got done building two roads into it. Very steep but will be okay in dry weahter. We drove in partially yesterday with a fairly low Kia Sportage.
 
great looking piece of property!!!! love the timber. i have timber on both my farms, and the kids have a riot goofing around in the woods. pick up a couple of the digital game cameras and set em up along any trails and see what kind of critters are out there. AND.......sign me up for the secret mens club that meets in the secret cabin in the woods!!! if i have too.....i"ll even wear the fuzzy lodge hat and ride the goat for initiation!!
 
You kind of lost me with all that. Many well managed woodlots (by professionals) around here get select cut every 10 years and work out very well. Taking out the big ones lets in light for the younger trees that grow that much better. My neighbor has had his 300 acres of maple/ash/oak select cut every 10 years going back to 1950 and is a very healthy stand of mixed hardwoods.

To the converse, I see many wood lots in northern Michigan get butchered and clear cut. Little trees get run through a chippper and sold to the chipboard OSB factories. When the loggers get done, there's nothing left but scrub-land.
 
It sure does look nice. Is it far from where you live? Too bad about the cabin, but I guess it leaves you free to go ahead and build something you'll like better. At least you won't have to do a lot of maintenance on that building.
Zach
 
When you remove your biggest best trees (diameter limit cut) you remove the genetically best seed source.

A properly setup timber harvest by a knowledgeable and trustworthy forester should thin trees across the diameter ranges. ALL of my sales cut big trees as well as small trees. You pick a target stocking and then remove across your diameter range to reach that target density. Most good foresters will then mark the unhealthy, poor form, low quality trees first, this leave the best trees to persist into the future. Over successive harvest the stand will be more healthy and your timber quality will improve, thus increasing revenue over time.

Sure your neighbor has his land harvested every 10 years, but is the revenue from his timber maximized?
 
It's only two miles from our farm. But, nice thing is that the power company's private 75' wide road connects our home property to the other. So I can run heavy equipment or a small truck back and forth without using any public highways.

I'm waiting for power company people to come here and look some of the woods over. I've got over 100 trees I want to cut, but they might be tall enough to hit their new high lines. It's hard to tell, and I'd hate to guess and be wrong. They are all on the uphill side and all leaning towards those high-lines. No way I could make them fall the other way.

I found three of their brand new high line cables that are frayed. Looks like a tree already hit them once and caused them to burn. Tree is laying on the road already cut up. I assume some power line emergency worked did it this winter, and maybe didn't even notice the wires are frayed?

What was once an American power company called Niagara Mohawk, is now owned by a company in Spain and called National Grid. And the other big company is now owned by a company in England. So, I'm not so sure how much they want to help a "foreigner American" like me. We'll see.

Anybody know a sure way to view a standing tree and calculate it's exacty height?
 
Maybe that's the original possom lodge. Home to Red Greens great, great grandfather? Nothing a little duct tape wouldn't fix. Dave
 
He's done better then anybody I know in this area. I've not an expert, but do know, and have worked with many loggers,timber cruisers, mill owners, natural resource foresters, etc.

He's a native to this area. He's now 82 years old, and had been sucessfull in dairy farming, logging, inventing, and also had a John Deere dealership at one time. He's got one of the most productive and healthy stands of hardwoods in this area. He now has a middle-man timber-cruiser that markets it for him. Goes out on bid and he then picks the highest offer every ten years.

As far as marking unhealthy trees? That has always been standard practice around here, even when done by state foresters. The state marks such trees every year and puts them out on bid for firewood use.

Seems your approach assumes that big trees are from better DNA then small ones? That does not work for a lot that has been properly mananged for many years.

One glitch is the high demand recently for young, pure-white hard-maples, and almost no market for red oak and white ash. So seems market demand also has to be figured in when cutting.
 
(quoted from post at 13:28:17 04/12/10) It's only two miles from our farm. But, nice thing is that the power company's private 75' wide road connects our home property to the other. So I can run heavy equipment or a small truck back and forth without using any public highways.

I'm waiting for power company people to come here and look some of the woods over. I've got over 100 trees I want to cut, but they might be tall enough to hit their new high lines. It's hard to tell, and I'd hate to guess and be wrong. They are all on the uphill side and all leaning towards those high-lines. No way I could make them fall the other way.

I found three of their brand new high line cables that are frayed. Looks like a tree already hit them once and caused them to burn. Tree is laying on the road already cut up. I assume some power line emergency worked did it this winter, and maybe didn't even notice the wires are frayed?

What was once an American power company called Niagara Mohawk, is now owned by a company in Spain and called National Grid. And the other big company is now owned by a company in England. So, I'm not so sure how much they want to help a "foreigner American" like me. We'll see.

Anybody know a sure way to view a standing tree and calculate it's exacty height?
Click to expand...
ou know your height &amp; can measure both your shadow &amp; tree's shadow, then ratio. It will be as exact as your measurements.
 
(quoted from post at 10:40:45 04/12/10)Seems your approach assumes that big trees are from better DNA then small ones? That does not work for a lot that has been properly mananged for many years.
Click to expand...

Theres a reasons the big trees are big... When you have 100 trees competing for the light eventually one wins why? Genetics. So when you remove the best genetic stock you are left with what is inferior. And then your seed will generally come from the trees with lesser DNA.

As for your neighbor doing well. I don't doubt he does OK because hes selling only the big trees. Numerous studies have shown that a diameter limit cut results in lowered timber quality and value over a long period of time.

Why wouldn't this work for a long term managed stand? I've applied this to dozens of stands that have been properly managed stands and had great results.


Edit: I'm not making any money off you for recommending a talk with a forester. If you were local I would show you some Diameter limit cut stands and some properly managed stands, then you would instantly see the difference.
 
I'm sure there are other factors involved, some regoinally dependent.

Besides the science of just the trees, there ARE other factors. Not everybody . . . in fact, maybe even the majority of private woodlot owners who pay for land, and pay taxes on it, do it JUST to harvest wood.

Some people like walking in the woods and like seeing trees. Some like seeing old growth (including me and my wife). Some people do it to promote wildlife. And, for that, you need some sickly trees as well as healthy. It's often a mixed bag of reasons why people own woodlots. Pleasure, hunting, peace and quiet, etc.

Another issue is maintaining enough fertility so new trees can regrow. In many parts of the world, trees are removed in a way, and at a rate, that same-type trees cannot again reach maturity.

I do know that there is rarely anything healthy about monocropping anything. You need a mix of ages and tree types since you don't know what's coming in the future. Not with prices, not with weather, and not with diseases.
 
The number one thing people want from their forest is wildlife, timber value is generally next to last. But what many don't realize until talking with a forester or wildlife person is that a healthy vigorous stand of timber will be good for a majority of wildlife. An "old growth" (depending on what an old growth forest is in your mind) stand generally has a sparse understory which provides little food and habitat for critters, conversely a clearcut has little habitat for much wildlife. But there are few select species that prefer those certain stages in forest succession.

As for unhealthy trees for habitat, I always spec a minimum number of snags per acres, and if they aren't present then they are created.

Monoculture are generally not the best idea, but some species grow best in monocultures and generally those species are managed with a clearcut system.

You don't need to educate me on forest management, I've been to school wrote the papers and done the work as a job/passion/hobby. The thing I hate to see the most is a landowner sell timber in a D-limit situation because the only person winning is the logger and sawmill owner.

Edit: put it this way I make my living managing trees and forest systems. I've done free work and spent personal money for some landowners to keep them from diameter limit cutting their stands when harvest time comes. If that gives you any sense in how i feel about proper forest management.
 
Yes, but what exactly IS the formula? If I'm even wrong by few feet, I might be in big trouble.

Is the figuring linear? I.e., if I measure a four foot tree and it has a two foot shadow, then at that time, the bigger trees will have exactly the same tree-to-shadow ratio?

Some of these trees look like it's going to be very close. I was wondering if there is any optical-type device that kind of works like a range-finder - but for the purpose of calculating tree height.

Issac Newton supposedly invented calculus to determine sizes of distant objects. But, I'm no Issac Newton and almost failed calculus.

Like I said, if I guess and am only off by 5 feet - I might land a big tree on 50,000 volt high-lines. And be in for some legal trouble.

The power-line road is 75 feet wide. Up to a few years ago, the high lines were exactly in the middle. But, they redid them recently and got a bit lazy. They left all the old stuff in, and put in new poles and lines 10 feet off to the side of the middle. So, some of these poles are now 27.5 feet from my tree line, and they are pretty tall. 30' at least. Also my trees are on much higher ground then the poles, up on a bank.
I could stare at it 'till the cows come home, but can't really tell where that tree will land until I cut one down and cross my fingers.
 
they sell devices for measuring tree heights down to around 2" of accuracy but they cost upwards of 2k dollars. Most foresters will use a clinometer and estimate height, shadows and such will also estimate height.
 
I'm not trying to educate you. I wound't do that even if we were discussing John Deere tractors. This is, hopefully an interchange of ideas and experience. No source citations or masters thesis required. You are the one that came into the forum telling someone their forestry practices may not be very good. Not me.

One of my majors in college and grad-school was environmental resource management and hydrology.
Also studied anthropological resource management and legal anthropology. Never used any of it on a professional level though. I'm cut out to remain a grease-monkey and nothing else. That being said, I'm pretty well versed in the many approaches to ecology, forestry, etc. throughout the world. Obviously not from your perspective since you're doing it professionally and I never have.

I can say for sure that I've known many professionals in your field that disagree on certain aspects of forestry management. Also disagree with themselves over a spectrum of time as new science gets learned and some old science gets disproven.

By the way, on "old growth." It means different things to different people. Here in New York there are very few true old growth forests, but there are a few. By that, I mean forests that have never been cut by a new-world settler. Can't speak for the Indians or mound-builders before that.

Not far from me in the Adirondacks is an "almost" old growth white pine forest called Cathedral Pines. It is an amazing place to see. Some almost original "Kings Trees" there. At one time, New World settlers were not allowed to cut them since the King of England reserved them for ship masts.

What I'd love to see and probably never will is old growth sassafrass. From a white-man perspective, it was "discovered" 1st by Jacques Cartier in 1534, and later/again by Samuel D. Champlain. Thought to be a cure-all for many diseases. So, Sir Waler Raleigh became a world-wide dealer/exporter/importer in sassafrass and cut it all over America and thus shipped it back to England.
Seems the "foresters" back then mis-identified it as the "tree of life" which now applies to Red Cedar , i.e. "Arbor Vitae."
 
I was kind of afraid of that. Hopefully the power company guys with have the proper measuring toys. Or cut down the questionable trees before I screw something up.
 
(quoted from post at 14:44:26 04/12/10) Yes, but what exactly IS the formula? If I'm even wrong by few feet, I might be in big trouble.

Is the figuring linear? I.e., if I measure a four foot tree and it has a two foot shadow, then at that time, the bigger trees will have exactly the same tree-to-shadow ratio?

Some of these trees look like it's going to be very close. I was wondering if there is any optical-type device that kind of works like a range-finder - but for the purpose of calculating tree height.

Issac Newton supposedly invented calculus to determine sizes of distant objects. But, I'm no Issac Newton and almost failed calculus.

Like I said, if I guess and am only off by 5 feet - I might land a big tree on 50,000 volt high-lines. And be in for some legal trouble.

The power-line road is 75 feet wide. Up to a few years ago, the high lines were exactly in the middle. But, they redid them recently and got a bit lazy. They left all the old stuff in, and put in new poles and lines 10 feet off to the side of the middle. So, some of these poles are now 27.5 feet from my tree line, and they are pretty tall. 30' at least. Also my trees are on much higher ground then the poles, up on a bank.
I could stare at it 'till the cows come home, but can't really tell where that tree will land until I cut one down and cross my fingers.
Click to expand...

Pure ratio.
http://www.beaconlearningcenter.com/documents/480_01.pdf
 
(quoted from post at 12:04:55 04/12/10)
Also disagree with themselves over a spectrum of time as new science gets learned and some old science gets disproven.
Click to expand...

Not too many years ago (20-30) there was a study that said hardwood trees are financially mature at 16 inches and should be cut at that point as they start declining in value. So many many foresters went with the diameter limit cut because the "study" said it was the best option and it was also very easy to setup and administer a timber sale.

In the last couple years a couple studies have been done that show a healthy vigorous hardwood isn't financially mature until its over 28" or so inches, and is never truly mature in terms of wildlife and aesthetic value.

Over time knowledge is gained and things change. IMO being a good steward of the land means being up on ideas past/present/future and knowing how to implement them.
 
I can get a couple skidders and ive got my own saws and got a good buddy with a tractortriler tht will hold lots of treelength.Give the word and we will be right over to show you how we do it in Maine! Hoss
 
Thats a neat story, good to see the details were not so accurate about the timber and such. Has to be a decent purchase, the way things are here, hard to say if I will be able to hold onto what we have here, and once you get attached to a place, it's so darned hard to uproot and move, sounds like you have planned a few options with all that you have in land, definitely something to appreciate, that and good forestry management, personally, I have a strong disliking for loggers who make a mess of things, and all the other associated forest harvesting problems, like waste, damaged trees and saplings, theft/fraud etc. A good friends dad, had their place harvested last fall, mostly pine, but so much darned waste and mess, so much firewood, even the pine as well can be burned, as well as the hardwood left, which they could have easily worked into the deal to at least bring it to the header so you could do something with it, hard to see all that waste.
 
(quoted from post at 16:12:41 04/12/10)hard to see all that waste.
Click to expand...

That "waste" as you call it provides the soil with vital nutrients that are needed over time. It is being found that sites with whole tree harvesting taking place over successive harvests are having a net decline in primary production. The soils are slowly being depleted of nutrients. That debris is also good habitat for many little critters.

In my timber sales I spec that the "waste" or more correctly called slash or coarse woody debris be kept as close to the ground as possible and when possible drove on with equipment as to lessen the effects of soil compaction from the tires or tracks.
 
Be very careful if you decide to hire someone to cut the timber; there seems to be more crooks per capita in that field than any other.

Especially watch for those who want to "cut the big ones so the little ones can grow up". That really means "take the good ones and leave the runts or weed species that will never amount to anything". And they know many tricks to remove far more timber than they'll pay for. Have it appraised by a reputable consultant before any trees are cut, and agree ahead of time exactly what will be cut and how much you get paid.
 
(quoted from post at 18:28:17 04/12/10)
Anybody know a sure way to view a standing tree and calculate it's exacty height?
Click to expand...

You need a Biltmore stick. Its used to measure board feet of standing trees. No math, no measuring shadows, none of that. Just stand 66 feet from the base of the tree, hold the stick 23 inches from your eye and add up the tree height. A Biltmore stick starts measuring above the stump, thats where useable logs start, then it divides the tree into 16 foot logs. When you use it for measuring overall height, put the first mark at ground level, count full logs of 16 feet, when you get to the top of the tree you will have a partial log. If the partial is half of the log section its 8 feet, if its roughly a quarter of the log section, its 4 feet. Add up the full log sections and the partial at the top and thats total tree height. It takes longer to read what I just typed up than to use it.

Just google "Biltmore Stick" and you will find a ton of articles on them and several on how to make one since they cost about $50 to buy when they are just different marked yard sticks.
 
Biltmore sticks are a decent estimation tool, but they are not 100% precise. And since he is wanting to cut trees around high voltage power lines an estimate isn't really good enough.
 
From as near as I can see, you and the family did just fine. I enjoy seeing things work out for folks. Portable sawmill, and you've got yourself a heck of a home.

Much good luck, and God speed to you and the family.

Mark
 
Biltmore sticks are accurate to a couple feet, if JDemaris needs to be more accurate than that, he should by all means get somebody to help him with that.

Besides, the next best information given to JDemaris was either $2000 equipment that he dont own or people saying to measure shadows with no formulas given or explained. A Biltmore stick is common and fairly easy to get. You can even make your own using charts available on the internet for custom distances, say your arm is longer and you want to hold the stick 25 inches from your eye, they have a chart for that. Want to stand 100 feet from the tree, I seen that chart too.

Using the charts on the internet, I made my own stick for my own eye distance and since I didnt need it for measuring board feet of lumber, I only wanted it for tree height, I just used the chart for my measurements. My stick just shows height in 2 foot incriments, since my eye easily can cut those incriments in half, I consider it accurate to 1 foot. If I ever need to calibrate it, I could take it to work and measure some multi story buildings that were shot with a lazer and I could compair to that. I really dont that will be needed though as I dont think I will need it to be THAT accurate.
 
(quoted from post at 22:42:02 04/12/10) Biltmore sticks are accurate to a couple feet, if JDemaris needs to be more accurate than that, he should by all means get somebody to help him with that.

Besides, the next best information given to JDemaris was either $2000 equipment that he dont own or people saying to measure shadows with no formulas given or explained. A Biltmore stick is common and fairly easy to get. You can even make your own using charts available on the internet for custom distances, say your arm is longer and you want to hold the stick 25 inches from your eye, they have a chart for that. Want to stand 100 feet from the tree, I seen that chart too.

Using the charts on the internet, I made my own stick for my own eye distance and since I didnt need it for measuring board feet of lumber, I only wanted it for tree height, I just used the chart for my measurements. My stick just shows height in 2 foot incriments, since my eye easily can cut those incriments in half, I consider it accurate to 1 foot. If I ever need to calibrate it, I could take it to work and measure some multi story buildings that were shot with a lazer and I could compair to that. I really dont that will be needed though as I dont think I will need it to be THAT accurate.
Click to expand...
did provide a link to the simple formulas. A Biltmore (hypsometer) is based on the principle of ratios exactly as is the shadow measurement, but the shadow measurement is more exact in 2 ways. 1) it relies on measurement with a tape measure, not an eyeball 'it is about there' while trying to focus on both near &amp; far objects, and 2) in the shadow measurement technique, there is NO arc length vs chord error, which is built into the Biltmore (hypsometer) stick technique (small, it may be).
 
(quoted from post at 19:42:02 04/12/10) Biltmore sticks are accurate to a couple feet, if JDemaris needs to be more accurate than that, he should by all means get somebody to help him with that.
Click to expand...

It can be that accurate it can also be very inaccurate. If the tree has a slight lean towards or away from you the biltmore stick doesn't really account for that. In an average day I measure a couple hundred trees with my biltmore stick and know it is an estimation, to get timber volume.

I would NEVER use it to determine if a tree is short enough to miss striking high voltage power lines. My life isn't worth risking on a rough estimation...
 
Show me exactly what? I own a old Deere 440A skidder, and I used to drive to areas of Maine to fix skidders. Also used to have an old Franklin skidder with a little Detroit 3-53.

We've got many State-owned woods around my area of New York where skidders aren't even allowed in. Same for many private woods. I think that's a great idea. They can make a stinking mess out of a forest and damage many trees not meant for harvest. Sometimes a small dozer works much better. Slower but much less damage.

In some parts of the Adirondacks deep woods, they're using helicopters to lift logs out.

Like any tool, a skidder is good for some things and lousy for others.
 
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