Rural propane problems

I've had trouble getting propane for 30 years and finally thought I did something smart to fix it. Now, I'm not so sure.

For years, I had gas companies that would only leave a small tank since we're not high-volume users. They preferred to come here often, on thier routes, and charge us the high rate. We're on a top of a mountain, very steep dirt road that often gets snowed in. So, with most of the past companies, they'd skip our home during their routine runs when our road was bad. As a result, we ran out of gas many, many times. They all refused to install a larger tank.

So - finally found a small company. The owner suggested I pay for my own large tank - something big enough to last up to at least, half a year. He'd fill it whenever he got around to it and it would always be at the lowest, high-volume user rate. Fine.

So, we paid around $900 for a brand-new 500 gallon tank. I picked it up, I laid it in place, I installed new lines, new high and low regulators for a two-stage system, etc. He then inspected my work, and did whatever it takes to put a new tank into service.

I say that - because there is a special purging procedure that is supposed to be used with new tanks for the first time - to get any trapped moisture out of them.

Well, since then - around 2 years ago - our propane freezes up anytime temps drop below 10F. We've had to call this guy many times. When he eventually shows up - he uses a hand-injector to put ethanol or methanol anti-freeze into the propane tank.

So, first of all - either he did not purge the tank properly when new, or the gas in his truck is contaminated - I don't know. I'm fed up with it. In the winter, my wife is often cooking - then the gas goes out - and I have to trudge through the snow a couple of hundred feet with a bucket of hot water. Pour it on the high-stage regulator, it pops, and all works again for awhile. Then I've got many pilot lights to light inside the house again.

So, I got fed up. This guy is not showing up anymore and I suspect he's going out of business. Heard he's having divorce/financial problems. Decided to get a new gas company (again). Now, every place I called so far - wants proof - on paper - that I own the tank. I never considered, back when I bought the tank, that I'd have to show title to it, like it was a car or truck.

So, new tank on my property that I paid for - and so far - cannot get it filled. I even offered to swear in writing to my ownership, and get it notarized - and so far, no.

So, I wonder what would happen if tractors, cars, or trucks were treated like this? Go down to gas station with an old diesel tractor - and - no fill up allowed unless you produce some sort of proof of ownership?

You don't have the bill of sale for the tank?

That is a common thing, unfortunately you didn't know. You need to keep your bill of sale, like a vehicle title.

There have ben a lot of issues over the years on propane tanks, ownership vs rental, and so the companies have done it this way. Need to show ownership.

--->Paul

There are also quality problems associated with moisture content. We had one supplier and for years we had lots of moisture problems with our windows. We had new windows so I knew did not have excessive air leaks. We switched suppliers because of price issues and noticed that we no longer had a moisture problem. I also noticed that my tools in my shop were no longer rusting. I was talking with my co-op supplier the next about our pre-buy program and mentioned about the moisture problem from our previous supplier. She said "we only buy premium grade propane" which has hardly any moisture added.

I am sure glad our propane regulations are different in the Midwest. All 3 of my tanks,2-1000 and 1-500, I purchased at farm sales in the 70's. I have enough propane for about 18 months for the house and my shop. When I think propane is a good buy I fill them all. Here regardless of the supplier I use they put a additive in to prevent moisture.

I have a cancelled check showing payment to the company. It does not prove much except I paid Ace Propane $975 by check on that date. Tanks don't have titles as far as I know. Neither do old tractors. I also have a receipt from that company showing the $975 they received by them, from me, on that date. I also have a separate receipt a few weeks later for the gas to fill it up. None of the receipts itemize anything except the later gas bill shows the rate per gallon.

So yeah, I wrote the guy a check, payment in full and never considered that . . . at a later date, a tank that is on my property with my name on it, that I paid for and installed, myself, would be in question.

I can't think of anything else on my property that I have to prove ownership of. I have a deed to my farm and properties, and titles to any newer cars and trucks. My older cars and trucks, and almost 100 tractors have no proof of ownership. Nor do my many diesel and heating oil tanks. Nor do my ox/actelylne tanks. Nor do any of my smaller propane tanks. Nor do thousands of dollars worth of furniture, shop tools, appliances, etc.

What happened to "posession is 9/10ths of the law?" As far as I'm concerned, if I claim ownership to something on my land, that should be taken as fact unless someone can prove otherwise. NOT the other way around. Does seem it works that way with most everything else.

As far as tank ownership goes you will have to find the recept or your cancelled check. In our area a persons word and no company stickers on the tank was good enough for my previous employer. I don't believe the water in the gas thing but possible (it all comes off the same pipeline). If you have water in your propane it will all settle to the bottem of the tank and will only be an issue if you are pulling liquid propane out of the tank. Your house is using vapor off the top of the tank and no water should get to it from inside the tank. You just have a bad regulator and need to have it replaced with a new one. When you install it make sure the vent hole is facing down as water can get inside the diaphram and freeze it up (totally different section of the regulator where the propane is contained). Has your supplier overfilled your tank in the past? that too can ruin a regulator new or old.

Good Luck
Merle

Just get someone to to make you out a receipt. All kinda forms are sold at our local office supply shop.

Hi JD,

In 2001??? they passed a national law that requires the company filling the tank to also own the tank. This new law went as far too include RV tanks.

My local suppliers have been doing this since the 90's, if they don't own the tank, they won't fill it, period. I went with plan "B"

This keeps the owner from shopping prices.

You might want to do a google search too read up on how too make your own methane generator. A guy in England swears he runs his entire farm off of home generated methane, lights, cooking, heating, tractors, pick-up, etc, on a 10ft dia x 18" deep concrete generator. The concrete lid is exposed to the sun. He said he recharges the generator with water, manure and straw once per-year, (nothing more than a septic tank.)

Plan "B". Another solution is too buy several 100lb tanks then connect them too a common manifold. The 100lb tanks don't have the OPD valves so you can still flip the tank upside down a get liquid LP.

A refrigeration diaphragm vacuum pump will boil water at 70ºf and pump the water vapor out of a empty tank, about 24hrs depending on water content. All water will removed at 29.925hg and starts boiling at 28.5hg@70ºf

T_Bone

I never heard of the water thing before. But the new tank installed here had a minimal amount of propane in it when delivered. Combining that with your account might mean that the manufacturer did whatever purge was necessary and the small propane content was to insure that the tank was never vented to atmosphere prior to installation. But the recurring freezeup is puzzling.

You sure that's a national law? Here in flyover Iowa, I own my own tank, no proof of purchase and I bet as long as my money was good, I could buy gas from one of about 4 companies local. They are for sure going to check the build plate and make sure it's rated for LP and not an anhydrous tank, but even then, I bet one or two would still fill it. Company I used to work for got out of the owning the tank business in 2001. They'd sell you one, or fill what you had, no tank rent programs unless you were a farmer with high volumes.
Aaron SEIA

I suspect that law cannot be a Federal/National reg. Several of the suppliers I called offered to sell me a new tank that I would own outright, and that was last week. In fact, several told me that ownership is becoming the preferred trend. They are selling above ground tanks, and also buried tanks for a much higher price. One mentioned a price of over $3000 for a 1000 gallon tank.

Thing is - I already own one and they're expensive.

There is a hand-held injector that is used to put methanol into propane tanks to freeze-proof them. Just don't happen to own the tool, and can't see buying one since I'm not in the business.

In regard to captured methane - it was attempted in my area for awhile and then, outside of landfills, got banned. Many farms were making huge liquid manure reservoirs with methane capture chambers. But, there were so many complaints from people downwind, they've pretty much been banned by local building codes.

The company filling the tank does not have to own the tank here in Iowa.

As president of the board of our local coop I know we fill 100's of tanks we do not own.

The insurance companies do require that you do a leak check before filling and repeat every 3 years. Also required to replace the regulators every certain amount of time.

Gary

Hi JD,

Well the AGA took it before congress too get the new law enacted. I can see them enforcing the homeowner larger tanks but RV tanks???. My RV LP supplier showed me a copy of the law so I do know it exists.

On the RV tanks it would be just a matter of time before if you don't have a Flying J LP tank, then you can't get your LP tank filled there.

No one would notice if you had a methane generator or not. The gas is contained with in the generator, it's not open, that's how you collect the gas too use. Methane gas has no odor. The odor comes from the imbalance of ingredients in open pit type composting but you would have a closed system.

T_Bone

Depends on what your working-defintion is for "common sense."

For most of my life, "commons sense" would dictate I don't have to prove I own a metal tank I paid for, installed myself, and have stored on property I own.

Since, to your definition, your level of common sense exceeds mine - I suppose you've got written and verifieable proof of ownership for every hard-good item you've ever purchased?

If you do, it at least proves you are a better record keeper - but proves nothing about common sense - one way or the other.

I bought this tank in Novemeber, of 2004 - not last month and no, I don't keep perfect records of every item I ever purchase. In the vast majority of cases, I don't need to.

Can't be the regulator. I have a box full of them as "spare parts." All new. Makes no difference.
They all freeze up when the temps get right.

I'm no expert on this subject, but I can read and research like anyone else. This is what I've read on this matter:

"In localities where winter temperatures are extremely low, attention should be given to the
setting of the first-stage regulator to avoid the possibility of propane vapors condensing into
liquid in the line downstream of the first-stage regulator. For instance if temperatures reach as
low as -20°F, the first-stage regulator should not be set higher than 10 psig. If temperatures
reach as low as -35°F, the setting of the first-stage regulator should not be higher than 5 psig.

The easiest way to cure this type of freeze-up is to keep
as much moisture as possible from your fuel. Adding
genuine absolute anhydrous methanol (99.85 pure) to
your tanks when you first fill them is extra insurance to
prevent freeze-ups from any moisture that may still be in
the new tank. Methanol will lower the freezing point of
water sufficiently to prevent freezing. When mounting the
regulator, be sure the regulator outlet is higher than the
service valve outlet. If pigtails are “looped,” be sure the
loop is upward, preventing moisture from collecting and
freezing at the bottom of the loop. Many times regulators
are blamed for freeze-ups when ice frozen in the pigtails
is the cause. Use larger pigtails (
3/8
” OD hogtails have
more than three times the cross-sectional area of the
standard
1/4
” pigtail). Two-stage regulation helps prevent
freeze-ups

12 oz. methanol for 420 lbs."

I don't know how you can POSSIBLY link moisture problems in your house or garage to "excess moisture" in the propane.

Do you have UNVENTED heaters?

In any case, burning 100,000 BTU's worth of propane (a little more than a gallon of propane) produces ONE GALLON of water. HOPEFULLY, that water goes up the chimney, but with an unvented heater, it goes in your living (or working) space.

Don't believe me... there's LOTS of places to verify that figure, including the University of Georgia ag site linked below:
U of GA Ag info

The tank for my house was purchased by me on a rent-purchase agreement with the gas company back in the early seventies. AT the time I was using it for the farrowing house.

Fast forward about 35 years to 2007. I had forgotten the tank was mine, and instead I thought it still belonged to the gas company. The gauge was leaking so thinking it still belonged to them I gave them a call (same company as 35 years ago) to see if they would come to fix their gauge. The service man said they had no record of owning the tank so it must be mine. He fixed the gauge and I paid the bill.

Now the old reliable gas company has been purchased by a local co-op and they still fill it, but if I was asked for proof of ownership it sounds like I'd be screwed. Jim

LPG regulations vary a lot by state still. They will fill our tanks here but do a pressure test like Gary said and may want to put on all new valves, pop off and gages. They won"t fill the older lower pressure butane tanks with todays propane. Check your state regulations and see if the dealer is following those or just trying to line their pockets at your expense as too much of that goes on seems like. Maybe your tank needs a new valve or has the wrong kind in it or messed up inside. You need one with a dip tube to fill tanks with liquid on tractors and vehicles but don"t need that for just home use on vapor.

keep the reciept for the tank--and the week later fill--id think that would be proof enough in a court of law if someone says it aint your tank--and just this summer--i LEGALLY turned a anhydrous tank to propane--valves and such as needed--and it was approved by the guy ill be buying my gas from now---he physically looked at it--and---i pumped it down with a vacuum pump for three days to make sure there was NO moisture in it!!!

seems like that cancelled check should be proof enough.can you go to the place you bought the tank with your check that their records should verify and have them make you a bill of sale. here in west ky. have a neighbor and uncle who own theirs. as far as i know no one has ever asked them to prove ownership they buy from who ever they want

I own 3 1000 gallon tanks and 1 500 gallon tank bought all used here and there.Used for corn drying and heat.Price propane early every fall from 4 companies and have never been questioned about who owns the tanks.
We had a gas and diesel fuel company that we used for 30 plus years sell out to another company.That company sent a man out who told us they owned the tanks and pumps and if we did not buy fuel from them they would remove the tanks.I told him to show me paper work that they owned the tanks.Never heard from him again.So turn it around on em JD.Mark

In Ohio you CANNOT own an above ground propane tank, they are all owned by the suplier and one company will NOT refill a tank from anouther company. The only tank you could buy and I do not know if they still sell them was an underground tank. Used to I would see a lot of them setting at a dealer but I do not remember of any setting there for a long time. And since 1966 we have never had a regulator freeze up and has gotten down to -20 already.

I live in ohio and own 3 tanks,2-500, 1-1000 for 30 years.Most dealers around here have 100 extra used ones on the lot,everyone is getting rid of them.

After having to change suppliers a couple of times I tried to buy my own and found out it was not possible.

Sounds good, and right out of the book. However I used to install/work on propane systems and know what works. BTW right now it is expected to be 18 below tonight with wind gusting to 40 mph. Maybe better yet light the book on fire and put it under the tank to warm it up. Never did it myself and glad I didn't but listen to some old timers talk about placing charcol under the tank and lighting it when it really got cold out.

Merle

Ya know....for being able to quote the bible so often...one would think you would be the last one hurling insults.

Water is used in NEW LP tank to do a HYDRO pressure check. After the water is removed from the tank, which should have been done by the tank manufacture. Then METHANOL should have been added to the tank. A REGO LP-Gas Serviceman's Manuel states the the volumn of Methaol should be 2 1/2 quarts for a 500 Gallon LP tank. The new tank should have also been purged of Air before it was installed. This is normally done at the LP suppliers plant site. I own several LP tank. 500, 250, 3 -80 gallons 2 fork lift tank and a host (7) of 20 pounders none of which have a OFP valve on them as I fill them myself.

Kent

We've gotten down to minus 30 F here, and before buying this tank and supplier - I've never had propane freeze up either. I've been using propane for 40 years.

Leroy,

I live in Ohio and own my own above ground propane tank. We bought it from Ferrell gas last year along with paper work stating that we own the tank.

Scott

MN Joe, it's people like you that give God a bad image to the rest of the world.

Is there any chance that the new propane supplier would consider taking over ownership of your tank and possibly give you some credit on your first tank of propane? Maybe they could take your tank on trade in and bring you one of theirs and recertify yours for their own use at a later date.

When I lived in interior Alaska, it was quite common for the temperture to drop to -50 degrees for long periods in the winter. I never had any trouble keeping my propane flowing with my tank buried 1/2 in the ground.
Another fella I knew up there, kept a heat lamp shining on the side of his (above ground) tank and didn't have any problems keeping his propane flowing (that I know of).

As for "common sense", I must not have any either, because I bought my (used) tank from a local co-op and I don't know if I could even find the canceled check for it if I had to. My supplier has never questioned the ownership of my tank, he's just happy to have me as a customer.

You can go to where you bought the tank with your cancelled check and see if they will give you a reciept.They should have no reason not to.However there is always a way around some jerk like that asking for"papers"he thinks you wont have.Like somebody else said go to an office supply store and get a receipt book.Fill one out and get somebody else to sign it.Whats he going to do,have a handwriting expert check it?Maybe before you do that you could call the Attorney General and ask him if you should have to prove anything to him to buy propane just so you know he is lying to you.Just show him the reciept if they give you one,or you make one,dont even let him touch it.Then keep looking for a different supplier because that one is a crook and you will want a different one anyway.

I read this post and got to thinking... Are there any propane tractors in your neck of the woods? I've seen quite a few older propane tractors in almost every place I've lived/been. Can't believe they don't exist in that area. How do you show proof of ownership for a 30-40 year old tractor or do you fill them up on your own? Just curious.

Hi,Just told about your problems, My family has been in the lp business for 80 plus years and Ive seen just about everything,
New tanks are sometimes filled with water for testing sometimes not, they do need purging to get rid of the air trapped inside them. That can be done by putting 15 psi of gas pressure in them and letting it out at least 5 times, or by using a vacuum pump to pull a good vacuum in the tank before filling it. New tanks have for the last few years been delivered with a vaccum in them allready from the factory.
We at my company have never used methanol in new tanks and have never had much of a problem with freeze ups. If it is below 32 then the moisture in the tank is in a solid frozen state and cant come out of the tank and get into the regulators . Most freezes happen at 33 or so and when the pressure of the gas is dropped at the regulator, almost always at the second stage , it refrigerates and drops that last degree or two and the seat assembly freezes .
Methanol will cure this, After a tank or two of gas is run through the system the remaining air and moisture should have been purged out, If this is an ongoing problem then the gas is definately contaminated with moisture and it does not take much to freeze things.
If it is happening at lower sub zero temps then it is not being caused by moisture inside the tank and could be the vents on the regulators freezing over. The older first stage regulators have tiny vents and must be protected under the tank lid, the second stage can freeze if it gets covered by snow or is under a house eve and gets water running over it or dripping onto it, a split open plastic jug slipped over it will temporarily fix that problem. Propane boils at 44 below zero, if your temps get close to that and you are pulling a large load on the system the tank can zero pressure and everything will stop working, I have never seen temps that low in my area though.
There is NO law stating companies must own the tank ! contact the local companies and get a letter from them stating that they DONT own the tank, report that to the new company and if they are human they will fill your tank.The code states; it is unlawful for a propane company to fill a tank that is labeled or marked as the property of another company. They can legaly fill that tank if it is NOT labeled as the property of another company, that is known as the container law.
A new tank is about $1000 for a 500 gal tank from the factory .Hope this helps you .

Hi again, thinking this through more makes me wonder if either again there is a large amount of water in his fuel and He did not put much methanol in and only lowered the freezing point of the water to 10 degress or so , or if that regulator is having mechanical problems in cold weather, either a fozen over vent or stuck lever inside caused by water getting up inside the body through the vent.
If it is a Sherwood regulator throw it the trash and get a Rego backmount. I have had NOTHING but trouble with imported Sherwood stuff.
This can be worse than it is since so far it has frozen in the off position. They can freeze in the open position while an appliance is running and overpressure the line running into the house.
I would definately get to the bottom of this problem before you have a tank and no house !!
Stay safe !

Hypothetically? The only possible problem I see is if you sell the tank or buy propane from someone else. Imagine turning it around and ask them for proof of ownership?

When we bought our farm in IA, from an estate, noone could figure out who owned our propane tank. The name painted on the side was a company that had been out of business for 10 years. The coop had been filling it for years we found out but they did not own it they said. We had the family/estate and real estate company provide documentation that the tank was privately owned and sold as part of the property. We have had 2 different coops fill it over the years and just had it pressure/leak tested this fall before a fill. Neighbors just replaced their tank with a buried tank, they paid a pretty penny for it, and own it outright too.