O/T Gas Heater venting

I need to replace the propane space heater in my daughters house. I see heaters that say no vent pipe is needed. Are these heaters safe? I grew up in a house that had a heater that wasen't vented, for 17 years. Why do some heaters need vents, and other's don't? Thanks for any help. Stan

I also grew up in house with space heaters. Those old houses leaking air the way they did was the vent. If the house had been built like houses today we would have probably died. To answer you question, you have to get rid of the carbon monoxide either through a vent or leaking house.

I get uncomfortable about any gas heater that isn't vented.

I once stopped at a flea-bag motel that only had non-vented gas heaters in cabin type rooms. I stopped because I was beat beyond being functional. I also was leery about the heater. I turned it on long enough to warm the room, then shut it off, and dozed and unwound for a few hours till I'd revived enough to head down the road again.

I have a "Knipco" style portable propane heater that I use in unheated areas occasionally, but I always wind up with a splitting headache when I use it.

I guess where your daughter is involved, go with your own conscience.

Yup. Old leaky house, or vented to be practical, ignoring code. I think almost everywhere, code is you need a vent in occupied space (house) the ventless are only allowed in an out building.

--->Paul

It has to do with modern technology, along with the size of the heater versus the size of the room, how tight, etc. The old heaters didn't have low oxygen sensors with automatic shut-offs like they do now - and due to that, weren't considered safe to use in many places. I've got half a dozen of the unvented heaters (Procom) and have had zero problems with any of them. Granted, I only use them for spot heating. I heat our home with a wood furnace, but . . . it's nice to have these heaters when you want one area to be warmer than others. Also nice to have during a power outage if you don't have a backup. All the ones I have, have mechanical thermostats, use no electricity, no outside venting, etc. Come in two styles, visible flame and infrared catylitic. The latter type really throws heat at distant obects and warms before the air gets warm. We have a 28K unit in several large rooms, and our three bathrooms each have 6000 BTU units. Neither me or my wife have ever noticed any fumes or odors, other than the slight smell we get from any LP device. We have two LP cook stoves, both with pilot lights. I notice them more then the heaters. When on-sale, you can buy a 28K BTU thermostat controlled heater for $179, and a non-thermostat controlled with three heat settings - for $159. I think they are bargains for what they do.

They will leave a black film on everything from not being vented..

AS JDEMARIS said.we have a 25kbtu infra red in our living room.my wife has asthma but the heater doesnt bother her.they arwe not legal in some states.the infra red put out more heat per gallon than the open flame do

Besides the CO, you get all sorts of hydrocarbon byproducts, and LOTS of water vapor, which can cause mold problems, etc..

Who the HELL wants to breath that sort of stuff, plus deal with the moisture/mold problems???

If you surf around the Consumer Products Safety commission website, you will find they do NOT have a high opinion of the unvented heaters.

I don't know WHY anyone would want one in their living space.

Sounds to me like you're going over the edge a bit. My house needs all the moisture is can get during the winter since our primary heat source is our wood furnace. I'm sure many on this forum do the same. I have a humidifier that already adds water-vapor into my furnace plenum to get the humidity up. Before that, we used a large wood stove that always had a large pot of water sitting on top of it - again, to add moisture. Any additional moisture is more than welcome during the heating season.

With out gas heaters, I don't notice a thing. Never seen mold anywhere in our home, no moisture/condensation on the windows either.
And, I like knowing all the heat is being used instead of being sent out the vent for the birds to enjoy.

I'll also add the "Consumer Products Safety Commission" is one of the last places I'd believe without seeing verified proof elsewhere.

With all the other things I do with real dangers - e.g. dropping trees, running heavy equipment, working on diesels, welding, etc., breathing the air in my home is last thing I have to worry about.

Now, if you live in a home that's so tight your ears hurt when a mouse farts - well, I guess that's a different story. Not the case, here.

Kind of FUNNY... we choke down cars and tractors to eliminate pollution OUTDOORS, then put an unvented heater INDOORS???

Give me ONE reasonable advantage to an unvented unit over a VENTED unit?

I'll take a high-efficiency VENTED unit ANY DAY, thank you!

I have one in the "warm" room in my shop, I am in the North. my shop building is 40x50 with 17ft ceiling.My bill for propane was $260 last winter. I kept the "warm" room at 50 degrees when I wasn't in there. Have a CO detector nearby. I am still alive have not experienced any problems. A friend has one at camp. I spent a few weekends there in the winter. no problems. I believe that they have the technology to the point where our Gov't. protectors are happy with them.

Hey, I don't care what you do, or don't do - as long as it doesn't affect me. I haven't been promoting anything here. I just responded to a guy that asked about these heaters. Sounds to me like you've never even used one. I've had several for 6-7 years now, and I really like them. For my purposes, they're great buys. And, THAT upsets you ??

One reasonable advantage? I can think of at least four . . .

#1 Ease of installation - i.e. no vent to hook up
#2 Higher efficiency - no heat out a vent
#3 Ability to install almost anywhere
#4 Price - $179 for a 28K unit with thermostat

"our Gov't. protectors " is an oxymoron. Jdemaris is (as usual) correct - most notably about hte CPSC being the last place to get reliable information. Those people have an agenda, and keeping you and yours safe isn't it.

No, not true. In most of the 50 states, vent-free gas heaters are allowed indoors, in living spaces as long as they are used for supplemental heat sources - and not as primary heat sources.
Code in my county in New York does not allow installation of a vent-free gas heater in a residence unless it already has a primary central heating system installed.

jd,

Just because they are cheap and easy to hook up doesn't mean they are GOOD for you or me, or the other guy.

I've been around various unvented heaters over the years, and they give me headaches and irritate my sinuses, including a brand-new one a friend installed just last winter. The EPA, OSHA, and the CPSC are all less than in favor of them.


You said you don't want to hear the truth, but why not humor me for a couple of minutes.

The first two paragraphs, taken from one of the linked sites, are VERY telling as to what you breath from them:

"There are no pollution standards for residential indoor air, but the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (U.S. EPA), the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration (U.S. OSHA), and other agencies have made guidelines for ambient and workplace air. Continuous use of a 40,000 Btu per hour heater, as would be necessary in a cold climate, causes indoor pollutant levels to exceed these government-specified air quality and health standards. Even the best case shows CO and NO2 levels that may be unhealthy for children, pregnant women, the elderly, or individuals with existing health problems, such as heart disease or asthma.

Even benign gases can be a problem if not adequately vented. A shower emits about 300 grams per hour of water into the air and is typically used for less than one hour daily. Building codes require operable windows or installed ventilation fans to remove this vapor. In contrast, about 400 grams of water vapor is produced per 10,000 Btu of fuel consumed. This water, if not removed by ventilation, will condense on cold surfaces such as windows and wall cavities. In moderate and moist climates, the accumulation of moisture leads to mildew and fungal growth. Fungal colonies in building materials cause rot and decay, and produce spores that can cause allergic reactions. Putting all this moisture in the living space, unvented gas heaters would truly seem to be like drainless sinks."

"Ventless gas heaters have seen sales take off over the past few years, buoyed by their low cost, attractive design, and high efficiency. Meanwhile, building scientists working on indoor air quality and building durability have warned that these heaters can produce enough combustion products to make occupants sick, while also degrading building structures. Recently, the controversy has moved to regulatory bodies in New York and California, and to a subcommittee within International Approval Services (IAS), home of the vaunted ANSI (American National Standards Institute) Standards."

"The CPSC recommends that indoor (unvented) heaters not be used while residents are asleep, and produces safety brochures encouraging homeowners to use CO alarms."

"Potential moisture problems are cited by Stuart Brooks, an architect with Energy Design Associates Incorporated of Eagle River, Alaska. In his eight years at the Alaska Energy Programs Office and since then in private practice, he has encountered several unvented heaters. "They do create a large condensation problem for houses here in the Anchorage area, as well as carbon shadowing on walls and ceilings," he says (see "Black Stains in Houses: Soot, Dust, or Ghosts," p. 15). While the Vent-Free Alliance's video Vent-Free IAQ Research states that a humidity level of 60% is desirable, Brooks says that in very cold weather, "more than 40% continuous relative humidity is almost a surefire level of condensation problems. Icing on windows, not just condensation, becomes a problem."

"The safety features are widely proclaimed by the Vent-Free Alliance (VFA), a coalition of members of the Gas Appliance Manufacturers Association. Nice & Warm, a booklet published by the VFA, says that the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) data "show no documented deaths due to emissions associated with the use of an ODS-equipped vent-free gas heating appliance" since 1980.

Sandy Weisner of Medford, Oregon, is not soothed by these assurances. She installed an FMI ventless heater in 1996, and soon after developed symptoms of carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning. She installed a CO alarm, which sounded as soon as she used her unvented fireplace. She went to the doctor and found that the levels of carbon monoxide in her blood were 30 times normal concentrations. She has since been lobbying her state's code bodies to ban the heaters.

Many building scientists are harshly critical of the gas industry's safety claims. While every brochure, video, and Web site about unvented heaters relates their safety to the ODS, Greg Traynor, formerly an indoor air quality researcher at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, says there is almost no correlation between oxygen depletion and increased pollutant concentrations. "There's no way you're ever going to get the ODS to go off unless you have a way oversized heater in a tiny room," he says.

In a 1983 Department of Energy study, Traynor and six other researchers, including Mike Apte (author of "Unvented Heaters: Drainless Sinks?" HE, Sept/Oct '96, p. 9) found that the heaters "pose a potential threat to the health of occupants of houses where such appliances are used."

Meanwhile, a new study from the University of Connecticut reports that CO can cause permanent brain damage without any single traumatic poisoning."

"Health Effects of Combustion Products

Carbon monoxide (CO) is a colorless, odorless gas that interferes with oxygen availability throughout the body. Exposed individuals and physicians may not recognize some symptoms as CO poisoning due to their similarity with viral illnesses such as influenza. Individuals with heart disease, chronic respiratory ailments, such as emphysema, and anemia, and also fetuses, infants, and young children have an increased susceptibility to CO poisoning. Low levels of CO can cause fatigue and chest pain in people with chronic heart disease. As CO exposures increase, symptoms progressively worsen through headaches, drowsiness, nausea, vomiting, confusion and disorientation. At very high CO exposures, loss of consciousness and death are possible.

Nitrogen dioxide can irritate the skin and the mucous membranes in the eyes, nose and throat. Depending upon the level and duration of exposure, respiratory effects range from slight irritation to burning and chest pain, coughing, and shortness of breath. In addition, repeated exposure to elevated levels of nitrogen dioxide may contribute to bronchitis. Children who are exposed to low levels of nitrogen dioxide, often show increased susceptibility to respiratory infections. Others who may be especially sensitive to nitrogen dioxide exposure include people with chronic respiratory disease including bronchitis, asthma and emphysema.
Reducing Exposure to Combustion Products in Homes

Take special precautions when operating unvented space heaters. Consider potential effects of indoor air pollution when deciding to use unvented kerosene or gas space heaters. Follow the manufacturer’s directions, especially about using the proper fuel and about providing fresh air while the heater is in use. This can be accomplished by keeping doors open to the rest of the house from the room where the heater is being used. In addition, keep the heater properly adjusted. Choose a space heater properly sized for the room you wish to heat and make sure that it is installed correctly. Keep flues and chimneys in good condition. Leaking chimneys and damaged flues can result in the release of harmful or even fatal concentrations of combustion gases, especially carbon monoxide. If operating any combustion type appliance, including space heaters, install a CO alarm. Use alarms that meet the current requirements of UL 2034 or IAS 6-96."

http://www.homeenergy.org/archive/hem.dis.anl.gov/eehem/98/980108.html

http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/463.html

http://www.homeenergy.org/archive/hem.dis.anl.gov/eehem/96/960905.html

Go ahead chief. I've had no problems with these heaters. I also have to use a humidifer with the unvented heater. Make sure to install CO and fire detectors. I bet more headaches are caused by drinking than the heaters. David........

Friend has an unvented gas heater.Too much moisture produced,he cant use it..I worked around propane powered forklifts,sick every day.

Since you have chosen to respond to me with an erroneous, faulty premise - I'm not going to waste my time reading beyond it.

You wrote "You said you don't want to hear the truth . . . " - yet I never said anything close to that. I'm smart enough to question what I hear and remain open-minded at the same time.

Perhapes it boils down to if it"s done right, properly mainatined and used in the application it was designed for. All will be well.

Yep, I've gotta hand it to you. You're as "open-minded" as they come!

Your smart-a$$ed refusal to even read what I posted tells all.

Even when you go off blathering in some post, I usually read your comments, even though I don't agree with them, cause I value your experienced opinion, even though I may not AGREE with it 100%. Apparently, you can't do the same!

We can ALL learn something by "listening" to others.

Yeah, well . . . nice thing is . . . no one is forcing you to scrutinize my "blathering."

I'm humbled by your erudition, and you've certainly put me in my place.

Hi Stan,

All carbon based fuel heaters have to be vented, period.

It doesn't matter if you open the windows or direct vent the heater, this is truely one in the same. The term ventless should have never been allowed for a discription term as it's just not a 100% true statement.

99% of the people do NOT use ventless heaters as the mfg intended in their design, open windows for cross ventlation, and that is the drawback too the ventless design.

Another consideration, does your daughter rent rooms? If the renter doesn't understand how to operate ventless heaters and hurt themselfs, I would bet there's a huge libility risk.

T_Bone

I have to wonder where you get such comprehensive statistic e.g. your statement -

" 99% of the people do NOT use ventless heaters as the mfg intended in their design."

I would not attempt to say for sure how 99% of the people on this planet do anything. But, I do know I've installed many such heaters - sold and classified as "unvented", followed installation instructions, and they passed inspection from the county code department.

You literally blew a gasket last time we had this discussion, and why - is beyond me.

As to many makes of nonvented heaters - room space needs to be calculated, and a forumla is used to determine the largest BTU size of a heater with no vent installed. If the size exceeds the square footage, then venting does need to be installed. In many situations, you certainly can install it . . . with no vent installed and no window left open.

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"I have to wonder where you get such comprehensive statistic e.g. your statement - "

Well JD, when you make 1000 plus service calls a year, you get too see all kinds of heater use. I believe that's called actual experience.

You try and pull the same thing this time and I'll blow another gasket too. As I stated last time, you lost all your credibility with me.

Now on to basic reading skills. Just scroll to the bottom of your attachment and read under "Ventilation Air". Here the mfg is just giving one example of an approved venting method from a UNCONFINED space.

Not all codes will approve such use even if the mfg spec's such use. But that's not the point here. The point being, the mfg does require ventilation of there appliance.

Thanks for making my point that there is no such thing as a ventless heater.

T_Bone

I've got plenty of, as you call it, "real experience" and I've never needed a Union to tell me what to do. I quit the IBEW in 1972, and never looked back.