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Building Pad for Pole Barn

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IAtractorKid

Member
Hey guys! So I'm getting ready to build a 40x60 pole barn with a 24x40 concrete approach in front. Had a couple guys come out to give me quotes on leveling a pad...I live just over the top of a hill.

First guy is a friend and seems very knowledgeable, doesn't think I would be happy digging into the hillside and would rather haul dirt in. His opinion is that digging into the hillside will take up almost my entire yard by the time he finishes everything back out. He figures it will take roughly 52 loads (18 ton loads) of dirt to build the pad up. Yikes!

Second guy (older guy...kinda grouchy but seems knowledgeable as well and has more experience) thinks it would be rediculous to haul in that much dirt and wants to dig into the hillside. Don't know if he gave any consideration to how much yard I would have left though and he didn't mention anything about drainage.

I don't have the quotes back yet but would guess the second guy is going to be ALOT cheaper. Initially my plan was to dig into the hill, but now after talking to them and really looking/thinking myself, I think would rather have the dirt hauled in...

What do you guys think? What would you do in my position? Is one way better than the other?

Thanks!
 
Personally, I am thinking a little of both might work well! Not sure I would want to destroy my yard, NOR would I want to have half my pad on "fill"...

Bryce
 
At my last job I was a pole barn salesman at a lumberyard. A few things I think you should consider will be if you build up the pad it is always best for the footings of the poles to rest on virgin ground, it's never a good idea to put them in on soft fill. Second, if it is a built up pad will the approach to the door be too steep? Will you be able to mow around it comfortably or will it be too steep? If you dig out the pad do not overlook the drainage issue. We got an amazing amount or rain here this spring and I could not believe where there was water on my place this spring.
 
Not sure I understand how one way would destroy your yard and the other way not? The building will be the same size either way, right? All we are talking about is what elevation it gets built at, right? Or are you talking about excavating soil from your yard to use as fill underneath the new building?
 
Clay / dirt fill can get expensive. I put up a 30 x 40 shop building and have a little over $3400 in dirt, and I did all the work myself.
 
I remember from my college geology class that fill dirt never, ever really sets up. Now, you may not be in earthquake area, but they said in an earthquake that fill dirt acts just like Jello.

Gene
 
Nope, I would never put a concrete floor over fill. My garage was built on fill and the floor floats on concrete pylons. Neighbor did same with 42' x 60 pole barn.
 
Yes the building is the same size, but he wants to cut into the hillside an additional 50' to get enough dirt to level everything. At that point he will have taken 100' of width and my property is only 170' wide.
 
Approach will be fine, most of the fill is needed in the center of the buidling. There is kind of a valley; back of building and front of pad are on the high spots. Everywhere in between is lower.
 
How much expense is the fill guy allowing for a compactor, sheepsfoot, etc.? Even letting it settle for a year may not be stable. Also re location...are there setback restrictions on your lot?
 
I will get some pictures when back Wednesday.

The North side is 8' tall, with the south side being 16' tall, so it looks good on the hill.
 
Set some stakes up for the corners of proposed building site. Go rent a builders level or a laser or even use a water level. Start figureing your cuts and fills. Try finding an elevation where what you cut from each end fills the valley. See what that looks like(in you head). Be proactive, set up some string lines, do some measuring. You need to be happy with the outcome, don't sit back and have someone else tell you what you need to do. They will always do what is easier for them and also makes them the most money. You can get do this. gobble
 
We built a pole barn in 1997 that we filled to match the elevation of the cow barn- about 18 inches on the South end up to around four feet on the North. Had train loads of sand delivered and leveled and packed it with a Case 450 dozer. Let it settle over one winter and built over it the next Spring. Concrete on the South half only, use the North end for machinery storage. Not a crack to be found outside a control joint and very little settling of the recycled asphalt on the North end. Hope to fill for a matching 40X60 shop next to that this Fall, the 1974 Wicks building has lived it's life and then some
 
The last thing I would want is rain water running down a hill towards any building. I've seen rain come down a hill, towards a drive, then into a garage. I would put any building on the highest point or remove the hill.
 
Whatever you do, make sure that you end up with good drainage away from the building. If you dig into the hill, you might just uncover a spring. Something to think about.
 
I think you're look you're looking at it backwards. What is it you need to accomplish? Then you can decide the most cost effective way to do it.

Your building site has three requirements: Good drainage, good approaches to the entrances and a reasonably level, compacted base on which to pour the floor. You have to solve the first two problems first! If you have a very large lot to work with, it's not that difficult to cut from one area and fill to another. But if you have a small lot or need to build close to a property line, you may have no choice but to bring in fill to get the site you need.

Getting the fill compacted can be a problem if your fill dirt is clay or has a lot of debris in it (e.g. topsoil). But you should be OK if the fill dirt is clean and sandy. If you have a reasonably heavy tractor, it will compact reasonably well when you grade it out. For a really solid base, consider bringing in some crushed limestone and packing it down.

If you're going to add several feet of fill, you need to be concerned about what your posts are sitting on. Ideally, the concrete plugs at the bottom of the post holes should be sitting on undisturbed soil. As long as you don't fill more than four feet that shouldn't be a problem. If you fill more than that, you need to be sure the fill is well-compacted at its base.
 
I'm with Bryce. Do what you can with what's on site and still have a workable yard then bring in the rest.

Be prepared to get some really long posts for where the fill is deepest. We put up a barn once that sits on nearly 20 feet of fill in one corner. Makes for some really long posts.

15 years later the concrete had not cracked. If your operator knows what he's doing he'll compact it as he places the dirt.

Depending on how deep the fill is you'll want the pad wider than the building. If the bank starts to slide away with the building a foot from the edge of the pad it will slide out from under the building. We had to bring in more dirt as the bank started to slide away on that barn we put up. But it was nearly 15 feet from the barn to the edge of the pad so the barn wasn't in any immediate danger.
 

Buildings are built successfully on fill ALL the time. However, it needs to be STRUCTURAL fill. That is good gravel with inch and a half angular rocks and not too much fines. It needs to be checked by a soils lab but most likely it already is and certification would be available. I help out some friends driving a truck occasionally, and a year and a half ago I was hauling gravel to a site where they built a new college dorm on the fill. All this being said, I would be looking at a compromise, because putting all that under a garage is not cost effective compared to under a dorm.
 
The only thing I would have against digging into the hillside is the slab would be below grade and you would have trouble keeping water out. It would be like having a basement.
 
With either scenario, you'll need to address the issues as have been mentioned, site drainage and properly compacted sub-base material over the existing. Remove any top soil or undesirable material. Fill needs to be compacted in 1'-0" lifts typically with a vibratory roller and you'll want 95% or better compaction. Moisture can play a role in the material's compaction, (needs to be optimum) just as much as sieve sizes of aggregate. I would want to know the existing or "imported"material will do that.
On large jobs its tested, at each 1'-0" lift, using something like a Troxler Nuclear Density meter, the results being recorded etc. If the existing site is stable, and you can achieve good drainage around the pad, as well as compaction, it should be ok. On large jobs they do test bores and analyze whats below for the purpose of determining what needs to be done to build on it.
 
much better to place concrete on virgin ground instead of on fill--cut into bank to get level and then dig a moderate swale around the slab and pitch to drain collected water away. I have built two homes in the mountains and into the hillside and the crawl spaces have stayed dry--a slight pitch of about 1 on 12 works good and easy to mow.I placed the bottom of the swale about 10 ft out and works good with all the snow,ice and spring runoff.
 
I cut my shop into a hill and have been fighting water ever since. I currently trying to cut the hill back further trying to make a ditch behind the building for drainage. It's a tough job because it was wooded and having to dig up stumps.
 
(quoted from post at 01:57:19 06/16/15) Clay / dirt fill can get expensive. I put up a 30 x 40 shop building and have a little over $3400 in dirt, and I did all the work myself.
Click to expand...

When I built my house I had $3,000 in compactable fill for the garage alone (2 car size). House was partially on a hill side with some minimal digging to flatten it out. Didn't expect to have that much in something that would be covered with concrete.
 
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