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How does Mahinder and MF both claim to be the largest??

J

JD Seller

Well-known Member
I see in their advertising that AGCO/MF and Mahindra both claim to be the "largest" tractor maker in the world???

I know MF has done this for years but it was on total units built world wide so the smaller tractors made for the third world market added up fast.

I would assume that Mahindra is doing the same thing. Their main local market is SMALL tractors for the market in India. That would be lots of 20-30 HP tractors.

It almost would be like JD counting the Garden tractors they build in the total.

The numbers change a lot when you get them to actually list the DOLLAR value of what they sell. Then other companies are on top.

The US AG tractor market is a good example of this. AGCO is in a distant third place with JD in first and CIH in second.

Then if you go to under 50 HP tractors I think Kubota is the top seller. I don't know if JD or NH is in second or third anymore.

You can figure numbers fifty ways to Sunday to make your point. I just find it interesting what different companies advertise about.

I really do not care if the company I buy from is the top seller or not. I want to know about the product I am looking at to buy.

Here is a funny one along these lines. Just a few weeks ago a Long time MF dealer was arguing with me that MF sold more combines in North America than JD in the 1970s and 1980s. I had to laugh about that. MF was not even in the top three. JD, IH, Gleaner, and then MF. These numbers are from the Dealer Association sales records. I tend to trust them more than what Companies are publishing.
 
Now if he were arguing that MF sold more combines in the late 50"s and early 60's, he might have a leg to stand on. But not in the 70's.
 
I don't know but if you are comparing the 2, around here they are worlds apart. Masseys are plentiful and Mahrindas don't even exist. I don't think any Mahindra dealer has ever lasted one year in my part of the country. I don't know anybody that owns one or wants one.
 
Last I heard, Mahindra was the largest tractor producer in the world. Last I heard also, MF was a non-entity...
Mahindra, I would believe. You look at where they're produced and principally sold... India. There's over 1 billion people there and their ag sector is very much in the size class of needing that 30-60 hp tractor that M&M produces. Read... large pool of potential customers in small size category that adds up to a LOT of units.... not necessarly a lot of dollars. I suppose MF is also a player in that market too... and to what extent I don't really know.
However, looking at things in the developed world, Massey is and has been a 'HAS BEEN' for a long time. Seems to me that the size of AGCO in terms of sales is 1/4 or 1/6 the size of Deere in terms of gross revenue and not quite as far behind CNH. Given that AGCO is a multi faceted company playing in all ag equipment sectors although not in industrial... it's still a long way behind the other two. So looking at the revenue end of things... I just don't see it. On the ground, around here... the 135 was the last heyday for MF. Most everything else of substance here falls into the green or blue/red category. Even the MF dealer carries Kubota so that pretty well wipes out half or more of their potential MF sales in the area.... and the other MF dealer carries Kioti so that takes his small end sales. Fendt is starting to make some presence here from one or two of those dealers... but to what extent exactly I don't know. I'd still hardly see it as a major challenge to Deere in the area.

Rod
 
MF is also a very large producer in India 135's all over the place. I was surprised to see so many when wandering around India nor would I be surprised that Mahendra wasn't manufacturing MF's for Asia.
 
arent some mahindras based on the old ih design..like 856 and such? I think I read that somewhere, but my brain seems a bit foggy on that fact.
 
You may be thinking about the first McCormicks. They were made in the factory in Great Britian. Even used some of the same IH part numbers.They were good tractors. Now I think the McCormicks are Mahindras.
 
Sure is a LOT of misinformation in this thread...."Non entity"!!!! BWAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAA Now there's a funny one!

Some people just don't get out much!
 
Just putting this out there. Could it be that Mahindra now sells the most tractors,but Massey has the most in total sales since they're a full line company and Mahindra only sells tractors?
Better question is,why would you ask? Feeling a little bruised because Mother Deere is taking such a beating from folks who are fed up with being treated like red headed step children? Take a deep breath and cheer up. Maybe Kubota will step in at the last minute,buy out Mother Deere and save the brand,then close the chain stores and start writing contracts with local dealers again. There's always hope,it's always darkest before the dawn,and all that flowery rhetoric.
 

It is all how you pick what numbers you want to use. It is like how Ford use to advertise "best selling truck on the planet" but GM actually sold more trucks but their numbers were split between Chevy & GMC. In the race between Ford & GM, Ford lost but they won in Ford vs Chevy vs GMC. Also, when GM killed off Pontiac, it was because they didn't sell as many units as Chevy but if you stripped out the truck sales from Chevy, Pontiac sold more cars. You just pick the numbers that make your point.

It goes back to the old saying "figures don't lie but liars will figure..."
 
The Mahindra tractors started out as IH utility tractors. Real similar to the B-414s and the D-212. They did not produce the large row crop tractors.

I just looked up Mahindra's history. They started out with IH in 1965 with the 275.

I remember going to the Louisville tractor show in the mid 1980s. Mahindra had a little side booth. They had one tractor on display. It looked like a B414 but with a better diesel engine.

I never saw one sold until about 2003-4. Then a local salvage yard started to sell them. He still is selling them and the Korean TYM tractors.

I have been around a couple of them. They seem to be working out for guys that are part time farmers. The one farmer that uses his full time in a livestock operation has torn his up a few times but he has also trashed JD and IH tractors too.
 
I just looked that up too. For some reason I thought they made the larger ones also, but I guess not. I looked at a tym before I bought my ford, but I couldnt find anyone who had run one larger than 30 hp, and it was on the high side of my price range, so I settled for used.
 
rrlund MF has made more tractors world wide than JD for many years. I was really just wondering if anyone out here knew how the two companies where both making the same claim.

As for John Deere's troubles. I do not think that JD management is in touch with large segments of their customer base. The "big" chain type of dealerships are not a good thing long term for the company or the customer. Too much risk in one place for the company and poor service to many customers.

When I was still selling I wanted many customers that where here year in and year out. Not the BTO that jump all over the place chasing the "cheapest" price. Truthfully I made a much better margin on the smaller fellow that put some value on customer service and did not feel entitled. The BTOs feel you should cater to them as they buy big dollars. I had no problem getting called out at night or weekends to take care of a regular customers, large or small.

I got chewed out for not calling on a few BTOs by a JD territory man. I showed him how the last few times we had done any business with those BTOs we lost money 100% of the time. JD gets paid by the dealer. Then the dealer has to sell the trade in trying to at least break even and hopefully make a profit. JD gets paid the same regardless of which dealer sells the equipment. Trading with most BTOs is just a reverse auction where your bidding on the trade-ins. IF the BTOs jumps on your deal you know right then you messed up some where.
 
There was a small manufacturer here who said the same thing about the big operations quite a few years ago. The owner said some of the dealers around were all excited about the possibility of selling big units to big producers. They made wagons and feeding equipment and sold direct to farmers with no outside dealers. In the 60's and 70's they were thriving. The BTOs put them out of business. Without those smaller producers buying a lot of smaller low priced items from them,they had to close. Simple as that. I don't know how it is where you are,but Deere still doesn't corner the market here in hay and forage. The BTOs run Class choppers,New Holland and Hesston have a good chunk of the market on the rest of the hay tools. If it's that way all over,with grain prices crashing and the livestock guys riding high right now,these Deeremarts had better baton down the hatches and get ready for a rough ride because it's the dealers of those other brands who are going to be making the sales for as long as this cycle lasts.
 
Here in North-east Iowa JD has well over half of the round baler and forage harvester market. The hay mowing machines, disk or sickle would be NH as the big seller, and JD number 2.

Hesston/MF is hardly a player around here in any type of hay tools except self propelled windrowers. There are a few around.

I have been posting about how the BIG stores will have a tough time with low grain prices and massive amounts of late model equipment in the dealers inventory. I think e will see some large chains fail in JD and CIH.

I also think that AGCO will be able to pickup market share. Most of the AGCO dealers around here are not loaded up with late model used equipment. So the slump in the grain prices should mean they have a lower overhead cost to handle.

The livestock farmer does not use enough high dollar equipment to keep large companies like JD going. A BTO grain farmer can easily have several million dollars of equipment. Most livestock guys would have maybe 30% of that. The livestock guys money is invested in their livestock.
 
Bison, I think you could be right about that as Belarus tractors are only made in one place. IIRC

So the total production of Belarus tractors would be out of that plant only.
 
(quoted from post at 09:09:10 09/07/14) Even the MF dealer carries Kubota so that pretty well wipes out half or more of their potential MF sales in the area.... and the other MF dealer carries Kioti so that takes his small end sales. Fendt is starting to make some presence here from one or two of those dealers... but to what extent exactly I don't know. I'd still hardly see it as a major challenge to Deere in the area.

Rod
Click to expand...

Out of the two current MF dealers in NS, I was talking with the one carrying Kubota recently and he said he wasn't sure what was going to happen once Kubota came out with bigger stuff as all his under 100 PTO HP sales were normally Kubota, and over 100 PTO HP were Fendt and MF.

The other MF dealer doesn't sell Kioti, they do sell Fendt but I understand the MF/Kubota places sells the bulk of them. There was a former MF dealer that is now selling Kioti (in the valley).
 
You're missing a dealer... There's another to the east; very active... and very much selling Kioti as his cheap line. I'm not too familiar with Fundy... but I thought they also had Landini for the economically inclined.

Rod
 
Here's another good one for ya... 'if the shoe fits, wear it'.
MF was wiped off the map here after the 2700 series tractors and by and large it's never returned. Between the junk they were building and the constant corporate upheaval of the 80's... most went to either Deere, Ford/NH or Case/IH at that time for anything over 80 hp and the small ones all went to Kubota. The only MF's you see left around here are in the hands of diehards who think that MF can do no wrong.

Rod
 
(quoted from post at 15:04:36 09/07/14) Sure is a LOT of misinformation in this thread...."Non entity"!!!! BWAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAA Now there's a funny one!

Some people just don't get out much!
Click to expand...

Hey! Don't be pickin' on just this thread! There's plenty of other threads with misinformation around here.
 
There was an article in Oliver Heritage not all that long ago that said actually SAME is the largest manufacturer. Not that they were the top selling brand,but that they build the most. Said that they build for all the other major brands,including Deere for some of their lower volume tractors.
Things change,I don't know how those stats stack up now.
 

I'm not sure about all the numbers and how they are calculated. I do know that Massey went global a lot earlier than some other manufactures. That dates all the way back to the late 1940's when Harry Ferguson wanted his little grey fergie all over the world. I have archive footage here from about 1953 or so and it shows them in Africa trying to show bush people how drive a TE-20. It's quite funny actually. But they were in Africa, Austrailia, India, South America, and we can't leave out Sir Edmond nnalert's expedition to the south pole on TE-20 tractors. So am I suprised that Massey has the claim of selling more tractors than anyone else since 1962? Not really. They had the exposure. One thing I do like in my area is the Massey dealers are family owned and ran businesses. Like most other areas the Deere dealership is a chain here also. I work for Deere and I can't even get waited on in that store. I went in there to buy a Stihl weedeater since Deere sells Stihl now and I could not get anyone to sell me a weedeater. So I left and bought a new Husquvarna instead. The closest CIH dealer is about 40 mins from here and to be honest I do not know how they are staying in business. Most of what I see selling is the New Holland hay equipment from them.
 
The large plant in Minsk is where they make there most popular tractor,the mid sizes.They have many plants,and each plant produces one model,keeps it simple.The bigger articulated tractors are built in another plant,as are the smaller air cooled tractors,combines,etc.One thing about Belarus tractors,you will find them in almost every country on the planet.When it comes to cash the Russians will take anyones money.
 
Ahh, but the truth stings. 'Here' if it wasn't for the Fendt's out front all the local 'AGCO' dealer would sell is their Kubota's.

Rod
 
Obviously, by your representation, AND by the evidence you present, "here" where you're at, won't be known as the brightest crayons in the box.

Ahhhh! But the REAL truth really stings.

I guess someone has to represent the bottom 1%. Looks like you all win that title.
 
You can make statistics tell you anything.

Both Mahindra and MF can make the "same" claim because they are using different figures to back their claim. In reality, their claims are probably not even the same.
 
Belarus, as I understand it... was nothing more than a Brand name that was applied to a lot of different tractors. What we most commonly saw in this area were the smaller air cooled ones... I forget who made them... and the larger ones were made by MTZ, IIRC... and those are the ones that come from Minsk in Belarus. It helped to be largest when you were the main state mandated tractor factory for a market of more than 200 million people.
When you got into the larger articulated models... those were built by Kirovets but still branded Belarus for those of us on this side of the pond.

Rod
 
Pickup truck sales 12-11--12-12

Chevy silverado 418,312

GMC 157,185

Chev + GMC 575,497

Ford F series 645,316

Ford F series outsold Chevy +GMC
By 70,000 pickups



Chevy 480,414

GMC 184,389

Chev + GMC 664,903
Ford F series 763,402

In 2013 Ford outsold chev +GMC by 99,000
 
(quoted from post at 14:28:18 09/07/14) You're missing a dealer... There's another to the east; very active... and very much selling Kioti as his cheap line. I'm not too familiar with Fundy... but I thought they also had Landini for the economically inclined.

Rod
Click to expand...

Ah yes, I totally forgot about them, and I was into the "new" location a while ago.... they usually have stuff on kijiji.

Fundy dropped Landini several years ago, about the time Cumberland Tractor opened.

Last I was into Fundy it was tiny MF compacts and one Fendt.....
 
Ahh, yes.... Cumberland tractor. I don't know if he sells much stuff there or not. I buy parts there sometimes, if he has them in stock.
Seems to me there were a few Fendt's on Fundy's lot when I was through there the end of may... and likely a few compacts as well. I was more interested in looking at the Fendt's than the compacts.

Rod
 

He had no tractors on the lot when I was there a few weeks ago, some import hay equipment still unsold been there a while. I don't see him pushing stuff as much anymore, he did sell a few Landini's, for a while, I did price a tractor a couple times, wasn't too bad but parts/service in the future always concerns me with off brand stuff being sold out of someone's back yard.
 
I have a firewood processor that I bought used in Windsor but was originally sold by him... If I had to guess I'd say he sold mabey half a dozen of them and that's it. I think I now know why this one was traded back in Windsor... When I call looking for parts he usually doesn't have anything. He's more than once told me in vague terms where I can obtain parts locally... as in 'this part off a stihl saw will fit'... and then start the search for exactly what Stihl saw the part came off. If it wasn't for me having a fairly good Stihl dealer here I probably wouldn't have found what I needed.
I can understand him not stocking stuff that doesn't turn over... but it's still frustrating. When you need something, you need it. Not a wild goose chase looking for parts. The last ordeal was for a drive belt that nobody had locally. I got 5 out of the US for the price of 1 here... and the one I ordered locally was longer getting here than the 5 I bought online.

Rod
 
From the Mahindra web-site: We began manufacturing tractors in the early 1960s for the Indian market. Nearly 50 years later, we are the number one tractor company in the world (by volume) with annual sales above 200,000 and over 2.1 million tractors sold to date. Our products are making farms more prosperous in more than forty countries on six continents.
 
Yep, it's a Tajfun. It's actually a pretty decent machine... and most of the stuff on it is actually off the shelf parts... once you figure out ~what~ shelf they're off of. For the most part I'm as satisfied with this one as I would have been with another one. Processors are pretty rinky dink machines to start with in this class... and if you want something that isn't you're looking at 100 plus grand and it still can't do a whole lot more per hour.
I've never looked at what hay gear he's selling... but I'm more or less of one mindset when it comes to that anyhow.

Rod
 

I talked to a guy today who bought a larger (10 foot) 3pt disk mower from him this year, he seemed happy with it, sold a few of those double action sickle bars as well.

The tedders he had don't look too bad, not much to a tedder, but again, parts and service.....I know some of the AGCO stuff is Enorossi like he sells, so you can always trust AGCO to help you.

:)

I'll stick with Kuhn and NH...
 
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