water line volume??

Anonymous-0 · Feb 26, 2012

Hey folks,
I think volume is the word I'm looking for.... My frozen water line is making progress and will prolly be open in a day or so. Anyway, gonna set up a backup that won't be in a position to freeze and am wanting as much volume (GPM) as possible.

I'm a little thick headed but afraid I know the answer here....

My incoming line is 1" but where I would tie in my backup line is 5/8". Regardless of the size line for my backup (3/4" or 1") , I would never have a flow volume higher than what the 5/8" could handle, right?

Meaning I may as well just run my backup with 5/8? Or would using 3/4 on 1 inch gain anything?

Thanks, Dave

snoop-nc · Feb 26, 2012

Dave2...I'm not gonna answer your question "exactly" as I don't know the "exact" answer.

When we built our home in 1983, we ran a 1-inch line from the water meter to the house...a little over 400 feet. The water meter outlet is 3/4-inch and we stepped it up to 1-inch. At the house, line is choked down to 3/4-inch, etc. My reasoning behind this was the pressure/volume question. I know that there will be a drop in pressure at that kind of distance, so I compensated by using a larger volume / supply line.

Does this answer your question....NO. But hopefully my comments will help you make a good decision.

I enjoy your contributions to this forum. Please keep us informed of your progress. Auf wiedersehen!

Rick

gbs · Feb 26, 2012

as a reference a 1" pipe will carry the volume of 4 1/2"pipes of equal length, the dia of a supply line is determined by the needed output after input flow loss due to distance being run is calculated ,sorry for the incomplete answer but i don't have access to a chart or formula,some of the loss can be compensated for by raising the pressure when possible

Janicholson · Feb 26, 2012

If your length of run is ~30m or a bit less, and you use the 5/8", you will see a small volume drop at full open max flow. A guess would be 10 to 15%) 19mm pipe will be less restrictive, but still throttled by the 5/8" supply.
Are you going to go deeper with the new pipe, or insulate over it? WHy not use it as a primary, and dig up or abandon the old run? Jim

fixerupper · Feb 26, 2012

Snoop has it pegged right. To maintain flow you need to go larger the longer the pipe is. Has to do with friction against the sidewalls or something like that. The techical guys know the details. Jim

Anonymous-0 · Feb 26, 2012

OK.... Since it makes a difference...

Frozen line is fed off 20ft of 5/8 going into 3/4 30ft to stalls feed for outside faucet at stalls is stepped back to 1/2 (5ft) inch for no other reason than that is what I had OH at the time.
So, for the stalls, I guess I could step up the GPM considerably by feeding the faucet with the 3/4 inch??

Now, the backup... My water meter is 30ft from the mainline valve (under the street) fed by 1inch. Output is 1 inch but immediately stepped down. The 5/8 line (choke?) would only be about 6 inches where I want to run the backup from. Length of backup from the 5/8 piece to the faucet would be 15 ft. Primary use for these two faucets is filling water tanks for the horses and could use all the volume I can get to save time....

Hope that makes it clearer.

Thanks again.

Dave

Anonymous-0 · Feb 26, 2012

(quoted from post at 14:11:42 02/26/12) If your length of run is ~30m or a bit less, and you use the 5/8", you will see a small volume drop at full open max flow. A guess would be 10 to 15%) 19mm pipe will be less restrictive, but still throttled by the 5/8" supply.
Are you going to go deeper with the new pipe, or insulate over it? WHy not use it as a primary, and dig up or abandon the old run? Jim

The old one is on the books and feeds automatic waterers and will feed my frostfree hydrants in the back yard when I install them. It's just too much work to make the backup do all that. And, if I do away with the original, I can never put it back (ordnances)...

State of Jefferson · Feb 26, 2012

The bigger the pipe, the less restriction there will be. You wouldn't necessarily think water would have much friction against the inside of a pipe, but it does. There are charts that can tell you exactly how much based on pipe size, type,(pvc vs galv etc) pressure etc. I can't find my handy dandy "Pocket Reference", which btw, has every pice of information a man could possibly need when dealing with any number of subjects, but it tells about how things like Elbows are serious hampers to flow. For example a sharp 90deg elbow may create the same amount of friction loss as 10' of straight pipe, once again, based on pipe size, type etc. So, to summarise--- even though you may be running through a 5/8 valve(or whatever), larger pipe down stream will provide better flow at the end.

Hope this helps some,

Ben

Anonymous-0 · Feb 26, 2012

(quoted from post at 14:49:27 02/26/12)
Hope this helps some,

Ben

Think it does...

Thanks....

VADAVE · Feb 26, 2012

There are 2 ways to increase your volume;
1) Increase the water preasure
2) Increase the size of the pipe.

If the pipe is freezing the only answer is to bury it deeper. Might just as well bury a bigger pipe. I would suggest 1 1/4 inch.

IaGary · Feb 26, 2012

Dave we have a 3/4 line going 3/4 mile from the well back to the pasture for cattle. We run 45 lbs pressure tops.

Not 5 cows, not 30 cows but 80 cows and their calves drank from that line. Yes there was a 500 gallon tank setting there full for the first 30 head that got there.

Within 2 hours all 80 head and their calves had a drink and headed back to graze.

5/8 line will be more than enough volume for your 10 or 12 horses you have.

Just my 2 cents.

Gary

elmersooner · Feb 26, 2012

the larger the better-even after a restriction. you should look up friction loss in firehose--would surpise you how much more oomph it takes to push down a small line.

Anonymous-0 · Feb 26, 2012

I have dug in lots of water lines, most common is 1 inch or 1 1/4

JMOR · Feb 26, 2012

(quoted from post at 19:25:38 02/26/12) I have dug in lots of water lines, most common is 1 inch or 1 1/4

0 feet, 30 feet, etc.....all too short for 3/4. 1/2, 1 1/4 to make much difference at all. Multiply those lengths by 10 and then we can start to see some differences.

Indiana Ken · Feb 26, 2012

(quoted from post at 14:27:30 02/26/12)
OK.... Since it makes a difference...

Frozen line is fed off 20ft of 5/8 going into 3/4 30ft to stalls feed for outside faucet at stalls is stepped back to 1/2 (5ft) inch for no other reason than that is what I had OH at the time.
So, for the stalls, I guess I could step up the GPM considerably by feeding the faucet with the 3/4 inch??

Now, the backup... My water meter is 30ft from the mainline valve (under the street) fed by 1inch. Output is 1 inch but immediately stepped down. The 5/8 line (choke?) would only be about 6 inches where I want to run the backup from. Length of backup from the 5/8 piece to the faucet would be 15 ft. Primary use for these two faucets is filling water tanks for the horses and could use all the volume I can get to save time....

Hope that makes it clearer.

Thanks again.

Dave

If I understand this correctly the current line is fed from 20 ft of 5/8 line and the new line will be fed from 6 inch of 5/8 line. Therefore, the new line will have less resriction than your current line. From my Cameron Hydraulic Data book assuming a flow rate of 10 GPM; a 5/8 copper line (.652 ID) will result in head loss of 73 ft per 100 ft of line: a 3/4 copper line (.745 ID) at 10 GPM will result in a head loss of 38 ft per 100 ft of line. To determine head loss in PSI divide by 2.31.

Since we don't know source pressure or flow rate one can not determine pressure loss. If you can tap into the 5/8 line and determine the flow rate (GPM) we can determine the head loss and sizing for the backup line at that flow rate. If that is not possible just tell us your "died and gone to heaven flow rate" (GPM) and we can size the line for that. To measure the flow rate just run the water into a 5 gallon bucket and record the time to fill.

Anonymous-0 · Feb 27, 2012

(quoted from post at 17:38:47 02/26/12)

(quoted from post at 14:27:30 02/26/12)
OK.... Since it makes a difference...

Frozen line is fed off 20ft of 5/8 going into 3/4 30ft to stalls feed for outside faucet at stalls is stepped back to 1/2 (5ft) inch for no other reason than that is what I had OH at the time.
So, for the stalls, I guess I could step up the GPM considerably by feeding the faucet with the 3/4 inch??

Now, the backup... My water meter is 30ft from the mainline valve (under the street) fed by 1inch. Output is 1 inch but immediately stepped down. The 5/8 line (choke?) would only be about 6 inches where I want to run the backup from. Length of backup from the 5/8 piece to the faucet would be 15 ft. Primary use for these two faucets is filling water tanks for the horses and could use all the volume I can get to save time....

Hope that makes it clearer.

Thanks again.

Dave

Click to expand...

If I understand this correctly the current line is fed from 20 ft of 5/8 line and the new line will be fed from 6 inch of 5/8 line. Therefore, the new line will have less resriction than your current line. From my Cameron Hydraulic Data book assuming a flow rate of 10 GPM; a 5/8 copper line (.652 ID) will result in head loss of 73 ft per 100 ft of line: a 3/4 copper line (.745 ID) at 10 GPM will result in a head loss of 38 ft per 100 ft of line. To determine head loss in PSI divide by 2.31.

Since we don't know source pressure or flow rate one can not determine pressure loss. If you can tap into the 5/8 line and determine the flow rate (GPM) we can determine the head loss and sizing for the backup line at that flow rate. If that is not possible just tell us your "died and gone to heaven flow rate" (GPM) and we can size the line for that. To measure the flow rate just run the water into a 5 gallon bucket and record the time to fill.

Takes just over a minute to fill 5 gallon water cans now with a 1/2 inch water hose. Takes me an hour to just under 2 to fill my portable tanks with the current setup. Not a big deal, just thought that since I'm doing another line, I'd make it a little quicker.

So, guess I'll replace the 1/2 inch restriction on the current one with 3/4 to match the rest of the feed line (not counting the 5/8 restriction in the house)... Then run the backup with 1 inch.

Thanks for the info. Gonna be prolly summer before I get to it but will post back the improvements if any...

MarkB_MI · Feb 27, 2012

The length of your pipe matters. Just because it chokes down to 5/8" at one point doesn't mean that this is the major restriction in the water line. Go with 3/4" minimum; the pressure drop will be significant with 5/8" over 30 feet. And I might run 1 inch. It is not possible for it to be too big.

kyplowboy · Feb 27, 2012

Any way you can hook on some where before the neck down?

If you have 5/8" and then go back up to 1" the flow out of the 1" is not going to be any more than what the 5/8 can take at a give'n pressure.

Dave

Indiana Ken · Feb 27, 2012

(quoted from post at 00:24:59 02/27/12)

......"Takes just over a minute to fill 5 gallon water cans now with a 1/2 inch water hose. Takes me an hour to just under 2 to fill my portable tanks with the current setup. Not a big deal, just thought that since I'm doing another line, I'd make it a little quicker.

So, guess I'll replace the 1/2 inch restriction on the current one with 3/4 to match the rest of the feed line (not counting the 5/8 restriction in the house)... Then run the backup with 1 inch......"

Thanks for the info. Gonna be prolly summer before I get to it but will post back the improvements if any...

Wow - you are filling a large tank. Yes - you may want to change out the 1/2 inch section of line. Again for copper line, 1/2 inch (.527 ID); a flow rate of 5 GPM will result in a head loss of 57 feet per 100 foot of line and at 10 GPM the head loss increases to 205 feet. I am surprized you are using a 1/2 hose, if it is of any length you may very well see an increase in flow simply by going to a larger hose. For example, if your hose is 25 foot long the pressure loss in the hose alone is 6 + PSI, at the currrent flow rate of 5 GPM.

Ken

MarkB_MI · Feb 27, 2012

Not true.

kyplowboy · Feb 28, 2012

Please tell me how the bigger 1" after the reduction is going to pull more volume through the 5/8" if you don't mind. Seems to me it would hard to get more water in the barn than the pressure come'n from the system could push through the 5/8.

Dave

Indiana Ken · Feb 29, 2012

(quoted from post at 11:32:44 02/28/12) Please tell me how the bigger 1" after the reduction is going to pull more volume through the 5/8" if you don't mind. Seems to me it would hard to get more water in the barn than the pressure come'n from the system could push through the 5/8.

Dave

To your question: The 1" line after the 5/8" line will not increase the flow through the 5/8" section. As you say, what comes through the 5/8" by 6" long section is all you get. However, the objective is to not add additional restriction down stream which would reduce the flow through the 5/8" section. In other words adding back pressure downstream would reduce the water flow velocity (volume) through the 5/8" section.

Good question - hope this explains it.

Ken

water line volume??

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