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Mike (WA)

Well-known Member
Some discussion re the guy with the compressor, wiring 240 vs. 120.

240- 3 prong vs. 4 prong (dryer cord). I'm assuming the difference is the green ground on the dryer cord grounds the frame of the appliance, and green goes to ground in the box, white goes to neutral.

What about the 3 prong? Green goes to ground, and there is no neutral?
 
In the old days, they allowed a special use like that to combine the nuetral and the ground for that item.

Ranges and driers are still sold without a cord, so you can buy the one to match your existing house wiring.

However, you're not allowed to put in such a combined receptical any more.

So, yes, you are right for any current wiring projects, the 3 prong is for pure 220v projects, you need to put in a 4 prong for any 120/220 appliances (most lights, timers, etc work at 120v while the meat of the drier or range uses the 220v).

--->Paul
 
Heres the deal:

In days fairly long past, some stoves used BOTH 120 and 240 volts (240 for burners, 120 for say a clock and a convenience outlet) but they only used a 3 prong (2 pole 3 wire grounding) outlet and receptacle.

There exists 240 volts Line to Line (Red and Black) but its 120 volts from EITHER hot line wire to that Bare/Green equipment GroundING conductor since at the panel its bonded to the Neutral. Thats how they got the 120 volts for the clock and convenience outlet BECAUSE THEY USED THE EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR FOR THE RETURN CURRENT NEUTRAL thats a no no nowadays

IN MODERN DAYS if an appliance requires BOTH 120 and 240 they use 4 prong (3 pole 4 wire grounding) outlets and receptacles. They have two hots (L1 & L2),,,,,,,One Neutral (A GrounDED conductor) for 120 volt return current,,,,,,,,One Equipment GroundING conductor The bare/Green

The SOLE purpose of the bare/green equipment GrounING conductor is to provide a dedicated return current path FOR FAULT CURRENT ONLY so the breaker trips and deenergizes the circuit.

The SOLE purpose of the insulated Neutral (A GrounDED conductor) is to carry normal return current for 120 volt loads,.

At the main panel the Neutral Buss and equipment Grounding busses are bonded together but downstream of the main panel and at sub panels they must remain seperate SO YOU DONT ENERGIZE THE EQUIPMENT GROUND AND USE IT TO CARRY LIVE CURRENT. As Buick noted ever wonder why the ground is a bare conductor while the Neutral is insulated HMMMMMMMMMMM. Its okay to touch the bare groundING conductor but you wouldnt want to reach in and touch the Neutral would you (its carrying current) so if you re bond the 2 downstream you are putting the bare/green in paralell with the current carrying Neutral and its then carrying live current. Remember the outer metal case/shell of some appliances is bonded to the ground so if you mix n match Neutral and Ground then you c an energize the appliances metal case !!!!!!!!!!!

Got it now??????????????/

John T
 
For straight 240 volt loads (NO 120) Bare/Green goes to the case as the equipment GroundING conductor,,,,,,there exists no Neutral, No 120 volt loads

For straight 120 (NO 240) One black hot,,,,,,,One Neutral,,,Bare/Green ties to case for equipment groundING

For combo 120 and 240 volt loads, Two hots,,,,,One Neutral,,,,,,One Ground

John T Retired Electrical Engineer before coming LAW MAN lol
 
Thanks.

True story- my wife's brother in law is an electronics genius- designs and builds high-end machines to convert audio from analog to digital. Gave me a little box that you plug a microphone into one side, and your computer into the other. Sing into the microphone, and it directly records to a CD in your laptop. Sells his machines to the movie trade. 6 or 7 grand a pop.

When he built a house, he asked me to wire the dryer outlet and cord, because he wasn't sure how to do it.
 
The guys was smart enough to make certain rather than guess.
Anybody here ever see or hear tell of equipment wrecked and people injured or dead because somebody guessed?
 
ground and neutral end up in the exact same place in the electrical system. They only seperated the two with the new plug. There is no neutral on the 3 prong, only ground, and 2 hots (115 each equaling 230)
 
If the ground the neutral are the same? Then why is the neutral covered with white insulation and the ground bare copper?
Is the neutral an energized current carrying conductor? Is the ground an energized current carrying conductor? Are the hot water taps in your house the same as the water bowl in the barn? They must be as they are connected to the same well?
 
When the National Electrical Code Book, electrical inspectors, engineers and power utilities say otherwise. Who are you to say the neutral and ground are the same?
 
25 years of electrical work says so! I did not say thety were the same anyways. I said they end up in the same place.
 
The neutral is NOT an energized conductor. It provides a path back to the box which connects it to the SAME place as the ground:EARTH!
 
Take the cover off your panel and notice where your bare ground wire, and all the white neutral wires hook up you will find they are all tied together at some point in that box through some form of connection, even though neutrals and grounds are seperated. And yes, the water at your barn and the water in your house have the same chemical make up : H2O
 
all the ground does is provide a safe, low resistance path to earth. The neutral goes back to earth as well. Kirchhoff's electrical laws would make some good reading for you.
 
I'm familiar and have more years in than you. The idea of tying the neutral to ground to trip breakers during a fault is a distant and weak side benefit. faults that trip a breaker or melt fuses are line to line or line to neutral. The reason iwhy
Machine cases and neutrals are bonded to earth is to keep chassis near earth potential and to keep live lines to only 120,240,277 or 347 to earth. Small home and shop loads use gfi's and arc detecting breakers to protect people. A tripped breaker due to a path to earth is quit rare.
 
I'm familiar and have more years in than you. The idea of tying the neutral to ground to trip breakers during a fault is a distant and weak side benefit. faults that trip a breaker or melt fuses are line to line or line to neutral. The reason iwhy
Machine cases and neutrals are bonded to earth is to keep chassis near earth potential and to keep live lines to only 120,240,277 or 347 to earth. Small home and shop loads use gfi's and arc detecting breakers to protect people. A tripped breaker due to a path to earth is quit rare.
 
Ground and neutral go to the same bus bar(s) in the main panel.

The way I understand it, the ground line running through the wall is not meant to carry current normally. It is there just in case something goes wrong, to provide a path to ground that doesn't involve your body.

In -2 Romex, the ground wire is bare copper. It is lacking the insulation that the other normal current-conducting wires have.

You need a separate, fully-INSULATED, neutral wire because it's carrying current, even though both wires end up in the same place.

That outer jacket on the Romex is meant to protect the insulation on the wires, not to be the primary insulator. One pinhole or nick in that outer sheath on a run that uses the bare copper as a neutral is a potential problem.
 
Check again. The neutral is an Inuslated, energized current carrying conductor. Where are you electrical engineer papers ?
 
Don't play stupid about the water question. Either that or you understand less than what I expected. Why is the neutral and ground on separate panel buss bars in panels remote from the main panel or utility meter. And why are four wires used?
 
Sorry, I was responding to your stupid analogy. (you know, responding in kind) Red-Hot, Black-Hot, White-neutral, bare-ground. Take your meter, (in any panel box) put one lead on the ground, the other on the neutral and you will always get continuity assuming there are no broken connections, enough said.
 
Measure the resistance, voltage gradients and current running through grounding systems. Then get back to us.
Testing between the ground and neutral at the panel closest to the utility service with an ohm meter? You think that shows anything other than you have no clue about raised ground potential and neutral current on ground systems?
Another thing, just how often are incorrect or damaged ground and neutrals found?
So again how is it you know more than the writers of the NEC ?
You are the type of electrician that couldn't figure out why patrons of a local pool were getting shocks. The municipality had already removed the metal fence outside and replaced it with wood as they couldn't figure out why people were receiving shocks there too.
 
I'm sure glad I didn't join in this. There seems to be an obvious diversity between the uninformed and the knowledgeable. As was mentioned by BD at least.....when all else fails consult the NEC.....and Neutral is a current carrying conductor.....on 120 lines, how do you think electrons get back to the source?

Mark
 
Electronics is a science. Electrical power is an almost totally different science, other than the fact that both deal with the palsy electron moving through conductors, or in the case of transmitting systems, electromagnetic waves in space.

Mark
 
With the power off, yes you can take an ohm meter and prove that neutral and ground end up (as I have said, and that is ALL I have said)in the same place. Neutral provides a path back to ground (earth) to complete the path for electrons to flow, and is not a desnignated current carrier. The ground wire is a safety device used to take the body out of the path of current flow (remember the path of least resistance?)If there is current found on the ground circuit, there is a problem within the system. One doesn't need the NEC to figure that out.
 
OH, by the way, over the years I have found several damaged and seperated ground and neutral wires. Whats your point?
 
Measuring with a ohm meter with the power off will often miss a problem. Try measuring voltage drop and voltage differential with the electrical service loaded.
 
Next part of the question is. Why are sub panels-pony panels supplied from the primary panel. Required to have the ground and neutral buss bars isolated from each other. Two live lines, an insulated neutral and a bare ground run to the sub panel?
 
Pard, your beating a dead hores. They are indeed seperate as bus bars, but somewhere in that system, the two are connected. The box it self is grounded. If you look, the screws from the neutral bus bar(s) screw right into the metal box with no insulator in some boxes . Read my lips: They END up in the same place. I did not say they they are always HOOKED up at the same place. The current flow in EVERY case ends in the earth. Thats my only point. The white wire in a 110 volt line provides a path back to earth where,,,,,you guesses it, the ground wire ends up also. With no return path to mother earth, AC will do nothing!!
 
With 120V loads the current circulates/travels between one line and the neutral. No current in the ground system is supposed to flow.
240v loads all current flows line to line. No current on the neutral or ground.
Entire system will operate "normal" with 120 or 240V loads if every ground wire is removed.
There will be nothing however to keep cases, enclosures or the neutral from floating above earth potential.
 
Ricky is wrong and Scott's diagram fails to note the 0V is actually 0V to 10V and measured with reference to earth.
Theoretically 0V to earth on the neutral but with voltage drop on the neutral it will raise.
Not a huge problem unless livestock are involved.
then the elevated neutral will raise the grounding system above earth potential. Now that the ground system has a voltage potential it will start carrying neutral current which causes voltage gradients and shocks live stock.

Measure line to neutral and it's 120,240,277 or 347 depending if the system is 120,240/416,277/480 or 347/600.
 
Don't know why you would take electrical advice from some of those guys with no credentials.
Ol' John T and myself are at least sanctioned pro's.
 
what on earth does all that have to do with what the posters original question was, or my statement that neutral and ground termanate in the same place?
 
Do the ground and neutral bond or connect at sub panels, remote panel or pony panels ? The ground is not supposed to carry neutral current.
 
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