simple wiring question

I am wiring my outlets in the shed and had a simple question. When wiring an outlet can you use the two screws as a junction? So the top brass screw would be the line from the breaker box and the bottom brass screw would be going to the next outlet(s). I know it would work but the bridge that connects the screws seems small to carry 15-20amps without getting hot. I was going to connect the runs and use a jumper to connect the outlet but the box gets pretty crowded quick.

Thanks in advance!!!!

yes you may, just be carful not to overload the wiring or breaker on the circuit

It"s illegal.
The wires definitely all have to be pig tailed in the box with a marrett. That way a receptacle can be removed from a box without breaking the ground or neutral circuits down stream.
You are correct the box gets too full. By law a larger box is supposed to be used.
I run a lot of stuff in 4-11/16 stove boxes and use the dual receptacle front plate. Plenty of room.

It is commonly done, but I don't think code currently allows it. The issue being that if you remove one outlet the outlets downstream are inoperative. The preferred way is to connect a pigtail lead to the wires going in and out of the box, and connect the pigtail to the outlet.

The bridge between the terminals is big enough to handle the full rated current of the outlet. After all, it has to! (BTW, the bridge is removed if you want the receptacles to be on different circuits. For example, if one is switched.)

I have had lots of problems with outlets that were chained together using push-in terminals. But I don't think you'll have any problems as long as you use the screws and not the push-in connections.

It depends on what version of electrical code is being enforced in your state or city.

Here n New York state 2008 is the current code and it allows you to wire outlets as you describe. Just no more then one wire per screw, that's all.

Buick-Deere is in a "foreign" country as it relates to the USA, so things may be different where he is.

I will give you SEVERAL ANSWERS:

BUT NOTE: Its NOT what anyone here (lay or professional alike) has to say, but what your local building authoriy and inspectors (if appilcable) have to say about it BUT THAT BEING SAID I bet if you splice them together with an approved splice method and then pigtail the necessary leads to the outlet, THEY WILL APPROVE SUCH A METHOD.

THREE ANSWERS

1) YES it will "work" and YES the jumper (top to bottom terminals) is rated to handle as much current as the device itself i.e. if a 15 amp NEMA 15R then 15 amps.

2) Is it how I specified it be done wayyyyyyy back when as an Electrical Design Engineer NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO It was my theory and belief the Neutral (A GrounDED Conductor) should NOT be broken and if you were repairing or replacing one outlet in a branch circuit THE NEUTRAL WOULD BE BROKEN.

3) Ive known Inspectors that SAY NO to what you propose, while another Chief Inspector of a large metropolitan district just recently told me its permissible (in his jurisdiction) and he will approve such a method (but admitted he likes pigtails better).

SUMMARY AND MY PERSONAL PROFESSIONAL OPINION and how I used to design

I would splice the wires using an approved splice (Wire Nut etc) and then pigtail a lead to the outlet

Now its your home and your money and your risk so do as you please. Others are welcome to their own opinions (maybe right maybe wrong) but I would use a pigtail REGARDLESS if your local authority allows you to use the outlet as a method of splicing as Im confident that method is indeed legal and I believe best for the reasons above.

Keep safe, Merry CHRISTmas

John T

I am not an electrician.
But I am a master bootlegger who does a LOT of rewiring when I remodel bathrooms and kitchens.
Here in MN you can no longer make your splice by using those two screws on the receptacle. You must make a connection using a wire nut and use a pigtail from there to the receptacle.

One caution, A GFIC outlet (not Breaker) may be wired very differently especially if daisy chained to normal outlets down stream of the GFIC. Jim

Thanks guys. I will go with the pigtail method.

a great question, and one that I learned from. In my mind, the mechanical connection was more sturdy and that's how I wired my barn. Looks like I have a lot of boxes to rewire.

If anyone has a citation from the 2011 code that disallows it - please post. I want to see it. It makes no sense to me, who knows? I'll believe it when I see it. I have the full 2011 code here but don't see it - but . . . I have not read it all.

2003 and 2008 both DO allow it. New York just changed from 2003 to 2008 which is now our current code.

I fully understand the reasoning why some consider not daisy chaining to be better - but I don't see where it's any safer. Also, how does it differ from any other junction box? A outlet in a daisy chain is simply a type of junction with an "approved connection" device according to code as long as it has the proper amp rating.

Yes, someone can pull an outlet and kill the circuit. Someone can also pull a wire-nut off a splice in a junction box. So what? That's why code says they can not be hidden behind walls.

2008 codes states - for such circuits - the junction cover or outlet box just be accessible from the interior of the building.

Also the junction-device must have an amp rating that meets or exceeds the circuit rating.

When's the last time anyone saw an duplex receptacle that was NOT rated with 20 amps pass-through?

I'm also wondering - if some code has actually disallowed it - how the heck do you control a bunch of outlets with one GFCI? That is what the "load" terminal of for. If it's no longer allowed, that would mean you'd have to buy a $50-$60 GFCI panel-breaker instead of an $10 duplex GFCI. That sounds counter-productive to me.

Thanks for the update, GOOD CHOICE, the pigtail will work,,,,,,,,will not break the Neutral if you work on that outlet,,,,,,,,,will pass old or newer cold versions I believe,,,,,,,,will in my opinion (but ask them) be approved by inspectors,,,,,,,looks like a win win win win situation

John T

Dunno LJD,
I don't have a code book.
There are a lot of small niggling codes when wiring a device. For example; the wires to the device or to the splice must be able to pulled 6" out from the box. The plastic romex cover must be cut off to within 1/2 inch of the back of the box. And there are requirements as to how many connections can be made per cubic inch. It varies with wire guage. All boxes have the cubic inch stamped on them so you can get it right.
I know that you can use 14 ga wire for the pigtail to a 15 amp device even on a 20 amp circuit. Lot of little oddball things.
As for the GFCI well that of course is different as you must make those connections on the GFCI itself if you want the load to be protected.
As I say I'm not an electrician but have stood enough electrical inspections in my own houses over the years that I usually don't get gigged by the inspector any more.

The new code book is huge and I have not read it all (and never will until our state adopts it). Just curious if it was disallowed - what reason was given (if any). It's not a safety issue.

I've been remodeling houses for the last 25 years and I've never seen a home that didn't have some of the outlets used as a junction box. Some have as many as half dozen lines running from them. Really the outlet having two sets of screws is what its made for, to string one to another.

I wouldn't. Years ago, I wired a circuit in my basement that way, thinking it was easy and neat, and much less complicated than using pigtails and wire nuts. And easier to fit into small boxes.

Eventually I added an outside box with a GFI for various occasional use, and as it happened, I tied it to the end of that same circuit. Everything worked fine for years.

Then my Son wanted to park his travel trailer behind my house and live in it while he was attending a school. OK, it had propane heat and really didn't need a lot of electricity, so we plugged into the existing outdoor outlet. All went fine until he realized that it cost a lot to heat with propane and it was a hassle dealing with refilling the fairly small tanks. So he bought an electric heater, and started using a lot more power.

I started noticing an odor in the basement that smelled like hot electrical. I checked around, but could not find anything. After several days, I decided that the smell was a little stronger in one of the bedrooms and checked closer. After moving a dresser, I found an unused outlet had a plastic wall plate that was a little discolored and I also felt heat in the wall. When I removed the outlet cover, I could see that there had been a bunch of heat inside the plastic box and a bunch of melting had occurred. I was darn lucky that it didn't burn the house down!!! And it never did pop the breaker.

When I removed the outlet, it was really charred and the plastic fell apart. The connection between the two black screws was still intact, but appeared to have been really hot. There was no evidence that there had been a poor connection between the wires and the screws, just through the connection between the screws. The plastic box was ruined.

I redid all the outlets on that circuit the proper way and replaced the ruined box. I also changed the outside box to its own dedicated circuit and breaker.

I am still perplexed as to why that single outlet failed when there were several others on either side of it wired exactly the same way that showed no problems at all. Maybe the connector strip between the two black screws was a little thinner, or cracked and it just couldn't take the load being sent through it. At any rate, I decided I really dodged a bullet. And decided to never wire outlets that way again. Live and learn...Good luck!

Sounds like you had an old duplex that was NOT rated for 20 amp pass-through. If so, it was mis-wired. I don't think you could buy such a duplex today.

Same thing could happen with a J-box and wire nuts if not done properly.

Stephen, Thanks for the post, gotta love this enjoyable sparky chat.....Your experience is certainly appreciated, at least by those of us who are sparkies lol

You say

"Really the outlet having two sets of screws is what its made for, to string one to another."

Im NOT agreeing or disagreeing or arguing but with all due respect to educate some here who may not be aware (electricians and engineers will most likely and maybe you also) of this procedure, PLEASE BE ADVISED

Theres yet ANOTHER POSSIBLE REASON for those two sets of screws!!!!!!!!!! ITS SO YOU CAN BREAK OFF THE TIE/JOIN TAB AND FEED THE TWO (of a duplex receptacle) FROM INDIVIDUAL BREAKERS/CIRCUITS Such is whats referred to as a "multi wire branch circuit".

How it works is you can use just a single Neutral (GrounDED conductor) and two hot phase wires L1 & L2 so the top outlet is on one 20 amp circuit (one of the 2 screws) and the other bottom outlet (the other of the 2 screws) is on another 20 amp circuit yet one Neutral can suffice for BOTH. The 2 branch circuits are fed with a two pole circuit breaker with tied handles so if one is off both are. There are reasons for and aganst this but Im not going to go there now, Im not wanting to sTART a fight or argument, just to educate some who may not be aware of this particular reason and method of having two not just one screw.

NOTE this was NOT my usual method of specifying, I didnt use many multi wire branch circuits, theres a time and place for them. I have already voiced my preference opinion of wiring and others have done likewise, this post is NOT about any of that or tended to re hash it or whats best, the poster has made his choice which I respect regardless if it agrees with my method or not. THIS WAS TO EDUCATE ANOTHER POSSIBLE REASON EXISTS FOR HAVING TWO SCREWS.

God Bless yall, keep safe, were headed to see Annie with the son whose comin home for Christmas from San Diego and the Daughter form Austin TX woooooooo hoooooooooo

Merry CHRISTmas Stephen and all the others

John T

Well said John.
Yes you can remove that little buss bar between the two screws.
Then you can have one outlet with power always to it and one that is switched from a wall switch.
I did that in my living room - one switch controls the upper outlet in three locations for turning on lamps etc.

Lot of things don't make sense to me.
For example: I had to put AFCI (arc fault circuit interruptor) circuit breakers in the panel for the bedroom outlets on the second floor and AFCI for the lighting circuit in the bedrooms. but I did not have to use them on the first floor.
Inspector gigged me on that and required a follow up inspection which cost me $50 plus two AFCI breakers at about $45 each. Grrr
Those breakers lasted less than a year and then would no longer stay energised. Inspector was long gone so I tossed them and put in standard breakers. Problem solved.

I had the same thing happen to me once when there was a 1500 watt heater plugged into that circuit. In my case I could see a haze in the room and hallway as well as smell it melting, but I caught it in time. I wire new houses all the time and also do plenty of repair on older houses. I can't count the number of times there have been problems with outlets that have not been tailed out. That is not to say that I haven't had a pigtailed wire "unscrew" itself as I was pushing it back in the box, but that is more due to not twisting the wires together tight enough. Also if you do enough of anything something will mess up. My vote is on pigtailing them out for safety and troubleshooting ease, however here there is no code prohibiting doing it the other way.

Did a lot ofelectrical work in my day. Master electrician state of Mich. Some inspectors will not even allow wire nuts in the old days. They fail quite a bit. Real old days solder and twist was the only thing that passed. Do not base your judgment on what passes and what does not pass unless each and every item and situation is inspected and discussed. I have had jobs passed that only 50 percent was checked. Should have stated previously twist and solder then rubber tape, then friction tape. Push in holes with no screw to tighten are the worst. And if the whole house is wired that way, after one prob lem is fixed, you will be back, just wait and see. Loose wires cause fires. Worked for GM and myself. GM standards used to be every wire would b e mechanically secured and tight. All wire to wire connections were pressure connected. Wire nut would get you fired.(wonder why.) Dave

Well said John. In this area they will not allow us to use two separate circuits from different phases for that purpose. Their reasoning is that this delivers 240 volts to the receptacle and it is only UL listed for 120 volts. I see their point, but question how valid it really is. Just an example of how the same code can be interpreted differently by two different people.

Well it is not illegal to connect use the receptacle to make the connection to the next outlet in TN. not illegal to use the push in connections either if you are using 14 ga wire.